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A few questions about progression through smartworks....

5K views 23 replies 10 participants last post by  s.davis 
#1 ·
My pup is 6 and a half months now. We are following Evan Graham's Smartworks system.

Here's where he is now.

Formalizing obedience:

I spent two weeks...two sessions most days on HERE and CC and HERE with resistance taking advantage of any distractions that presented themselves. As far as how much pressure he's getting from the collar in case you are wondering.....my CC went like this. I started on 0.5 while calling HERE....and pulling with the rope gradually stepping up the pressure. He showed that he noticed the pressure at 1.5 but it didn't seem to bother him. At 2.0 he would run quickly to me and at 2.5 he would let out a little whine so I established 2.0 as a good working level of pressure. He's completely reliable on HERE if there are no distractions at this point. His attitude when we are on walks or getting ready for field training is happy excitement hopping around tail up and wagging....no droop or anxiety but you can see him reigning himself in to check back as he stays close to me (within 10-15 yards)....just like the book says to expect...he's expecting me to call him HERE at any moment so he's keeping himself ready to come and checks back frequently. If there is a distraction like one of the kids or another dog or our cat or whatever he will come but usually needs a nick from the collar as reinforcement and depending on the distraction he needs a heavier nick as high as 3.5 or 4 and sometimes continuous which amazed me as he showed that 2.5 was more than enough pressure during CC. I am using planned and unplanned distractions to further formalize HERE. First question: Should I be continuing my focus on HERE before moving on to HEEL, SIT, HEEL with stick pressure? Earlier this week I thought I was ready to move on so I have begun HEEL, SIT, HEEL and after 4 sessions he's getting the picture.....he's doing very well on a very short lead in a straight line as long as no distractions just like above with HERE. For HEEL, SIT, HEEL I am using a pinch collar on a short lead...NO E COLLAR. Since I'm seeing the same thing with HEEL, SIT, HEEL as I did with HERE I'm thinking I need to back up and spend more time on HERE and more time on CC with resistance until he can work through distractions????? I want to make sure I'm fully ingraining all of this and am trying to take my time.

Field Training:

We've done a lot of single marks up to 80-100 yards and have done short double marks ...maybe 50 yards... all in short grass and medium cover...nothing he can't see over.....this has been pretty easy stuff. For the singles my bird boy or girl makes the throws at varying distances. For the doubles one bird boy makes the first throw and I restrain him after he's marked the fall and then turn 180 degrees and the other bird girl makes the second throw which I allow him to retrieve. He then is allowed to go to the memory bird. He's very good at this and I've started introducing some doubles at different angles as close to each other as 90 degrees....he's good on these as well but you can see him eyeballing that memory mark the whole time.

Progressing from there I've introduced him to stickmen and today we did our first A,B,C drill with 4 stickmen and a bird girl throwing single marks ranging from 20 to 80 yards in short grass. He nailed every single throw completely ignored the bird girl and completely ignored the stickmen. All he cares about is the bumper and me. (except for when the neighbors basset hound heard the commotion and came to check things out). I did use this as an opportunity to reinforce HERE.

For all of this the only obedience I'm requiring is that he start out at heel sitting next to me and comes all the way HERE....I'm not needing to use any pressure for this. While the bird boys throw I keep him steady by holding his collar.

My question about this part is how many marks do you generally give a 6 month old pup in a single session. Right now he's been getting about 20 and is begging for more. He goes out hard and fast, comes back hard and fast. Doesn't want to give up the bumper and if I'm not careful he'll jump up and steal it back from me any chance he gets.....simply CRAZY about bumpers. He's not been introduced to birds yet but that's coming soon.
 
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#5 ·
Thanks!! I was running fewer.....remember these are fairly short and he can't get enough. I was feeling like it was a lot but couldn't find anything in print that mentioned how much was enough. Appreciate the comment....that's why I asked.

Oh...I forgot to mention I'm only doing one field session per day and I do miss a day here and there.
 
#4 ·
Sounds like you and your pup are doing awesome. I think 20 marks is WAY to many. Keep him/her wanting more. I would say 4-6 marks at the most. I'm very sure more experienced trainers will chime in here but 20 is way to many marks for a young pup! Just my opinion!

Chris
 
#6 ·
I think it's a good idea to quit training, leaving the dog wanting "one more retrieve". Do you have a training group with some seasoned trainers? Something tells me that you would benefit from having someone experienced watch you and tell you if you are training at an appropriate pace.
 
#8 ·
You really need to get in touch with experienced people. My gut feeling is that you might be pushing a little hard. It would be nice to have someone who is experienced watch you.

I really should ask what is your own experience in training dogs?
 
#10 ·
This is my second dog. My first was a Golden and I loved him like no other....he died of cancer last summer. I am strictly a bird hunter....have no plans to run any tests or trials. I simply want a well trained hunting dog. Why no hunt tests or trials? Well honestly I can't afford yet another obsession lol.
 
#9 ·
That's an excellent description. It appears you've got a keeper, and the bird boy situation sounds wonderful.

Doesn't want to give up the bumper and if I'm not careful he'll jump up and steal it back from me any chance he gets.....simply CRAZY about bumpers.
You need to slow the delivery process down. The frenzy of too many marks (mentioned before) will eat away the desired expectations of control and responsiveness. Don't feed his anxiety. Teach him that being calm and quiet at the line is much more important than flying "out and back" twenty plus times.

It appears that his retrieving drive may be way ahead of his mental maturity which happens often early on. Pups caught in this dilemma often develop faulty, negative coping skills to deal with this. Avoid over reaching on skills and try to allow his age specific immaturity to "catch up" with his raw talent.

By the way, your description had me thinking "Wow, I think archer66 is going to have a wild ride with this pup." Hang on tight. :)
 
#11 ·
That's an excellent description. It appears you've got a keeper, and the bird boy situation sounds wonderful.



You need to slow the delivery process down. The frenzy of too many marks (mentioned before) will eat away the desired expectations of control and responsiveness. Don't feed his anxiety. Teach him that being calm and quiet at the line is much more important than flying "out and back" twenty plus times.

It appears that his retrieving drive may be way ahead of his mental maturity which happens often early on. Pups caught in this dilemma often develop faulty, negative coping skills to deal with this. Avoid over reaching on skills and try to allow his age specific immaturity to "catch up" with his raw talent.

By the way, your description had me thinking "Wow, I think archer66 is going to have a wild ride with this pup." Hang on tight. :)
Thanks for the comment....by slowing down the whole delivery process down are you suggesting more time between retrieves? Here's what I'm doing now: He comes back with the bumper and since he's not force trained hes sometimes holding it correctly and sometimes cigaring it. He gets to me and I'll sit him down but again since he's not forced he'll duck his head or turn it away in an attempt to keep the bumper. I generally have to PRY it out of his mouth.....I know that HOLD, DROP, and the rest of force fetch will cure this so I haven't been worrying about it. Let me make another comment about him....he's a full time house dog, his house training went very well, he thinks he's a lap dog....matter of fact right now he's staring jealously at my laptop lol. He's much more laid back than my Golden was...he's very calm and quiet in the house...only barks when he wants to go out and no one is paying attention. His FRENETIC attitude toward bumpers is the only thing he acts that way toward......if he's not in sit I really do have to watch him or he'll jump and steal a bumper from me. I've been stuffing them in a backpack so he can't see them when we are walking to and from the line.

What are your thoughts on my obedience question?
 
#12 ·
I wish my pup wanted to retrieve like that that she seems to get board with more than 3-4 marks in the same general area but lights it up with different set ups. You might want to work on the letting go of bumper before bird intro but I'm just as new to this as you so what do I know. My pup used to not let go of bumpers also and when we introduced to birds I had a pheasant in three pieces, never found one of the legs and got my hand bit at least once.:razz:
 
#13 ·
OK. You have experience training a dog. What is your gut feeling on the obedience?

In my obedience class, here, heel, and sit is an ongoing project. When I taught each command, I did one at a time but again these commands are an ongoing project and this is obedience class. In training her for outside the obedience ring, I took my time and trained her in different areas to generalize the behavior. My approach also is to introduce each distraction singly, then add one distraction at a time until I get a satisfactory response with the added distraction. I mention this because you seem to be concerned about the here command around distractions. Others may be dealing with distractions in a different way. Hopefully you will get more input.

As far as your pup goes, I wish you luck. You sound like you have a terrific pup!
 
#14 ·
My concern about the distractions stems from the need to have a strong foundation....each progressive step in training builds on skills learned in the current step. What I don't know is whether or not I'm expecting too much compliance in the face of distractions for the age/maturity level of my pup. My book covers the steps but really doesn't elaborate on how to know when to move to the next step. Sam knows what HERE means and he's learning that he has to obey the HERE command even when he doesn't want too. So....what I'm trying to figure out is whether or not I'm "glossing" over the foundation that HERE builds by moving on to HEEL, SIT and then on to force breaking if he's still not distraction proof. HERE is important not only because it's the first command formalized in obedience but also for the safety of my pup....I have to be able to call him off other dogs, deer, roadways, skunks, porcupines.....etc.... I know I can't expect perfection but you get the picture. I just want to do it right....
 
#15 ·
I agree with you about needing a strong foundation. I think here is of utmost importance and let me state I had a problem with my current dog but I worked on it the following way. Here in the house. Here in the yard---short then long distances. Here in front of the house. Here where she had to run past my son in front of the house. Then here alone in the field, then past my son, then past one dog, then past one dog and my son, and so on. My approach---make it clear what is expected in each situation. I also think that when my dog was 6 months she would have had a hard time with the distractions that you mention. Bottom line IMHO is that you are expecting too much at 6 months.

My description above is often called proofing. It can't hurt to proof before you consider a behavior to be learned.
 
#16 ·
My pup is 6 and a half months now. We are following Evan Graham's Smartwork system.

Here's where he is now.

My question about this part is how many marks do you generally give a 6 month old pup in a single session. Right now he's been getting about 20 and is begging for more. He goes out hard and fast, comes back hard and fast. Doesn't want to give up the bumper and if I'm not careful he'll jump up and steal it back from me any chance he gets.....simply CRAZY about bumpers. He's not been introduced to birds yet but that's coming soon.
Cut your number of marks in half for now. Otherwise, generally a good start. Can you post some video of some of your work?

Evan
 
#17 ·
I'll have to see if I can come up with a video camera...otherwise it would just be cell phone video and my cell phone camera is awful. I assume you mean video of field work or did you mean video of obedience work? I'm going to cut his marks way back....he's so into retrieving I feel like my time is better spent on obedience right now anyway. I was really most interested in guidance on how to know if I've covered HERE and CC well enough to move on with HEEL, SIT, HEEL....and after that on to force fetch.
 
#18 · (Edited)
By slowing down the whole delivery process down are you suggesting more time between retrieves?
Well that would happen, but the time would be increased in terms of the amount of time it takes you to slow down taking the bumper from your pup. I assume he comes to heel and sits. Then is when you need to create a different expectation. Don't try to take the bumper right away. Let him settle into the sit, calm down and focus more on you. The idea is to give him more time to realize that until this happens.....there won't be another retrieve. It's not just about the retrieve.

Be quiet and calm as you remind him to sit....and wait. By refocusing him on you, the bumper will be easier to take and eventually this will be a more pleasant expectation/routine.

Basically, he thinks it the bumper is his and you are not allowing him enough time to adjust. The haste keeps him in the adrenalin rush of "ready, set go". A manic pup seems to be able to go forever and it is exciting. However, they can be a "pain in the behind" when this is ingrained.

Without the FF routine of "sit", "hold" and "drop/give" in place....time is the only way to get a more reliable and willing "give".
 
#20 ·
Kwicklabs gives very good advice, Grasshopper
 
#21 · (Edited)
archer66, here is something you might consider using. This is a photo of a young pup. She was older than yours (9 months) and was well past FF at the time. Daisy was a very precocious pup (like yours).

At that age, she was running a tower shoot......the youngest by far working that day. "Euro" shoots mean many exciting retrieves, adrenelin "boosts" and distractions including often crippled, big rooster pheasants .

In order to have more control over her delivery, she was wearing a short tab. This allowed me to take hold of it and "settle her down" before asking her to "give" any retrieve. It provided the opportunity to impress upon her, "Hey....remember me? and what you are supposed to do?" The focus was on responsiveness.



Here's a link for all the photos featuring Daisy's tab.

Pheasant Tab (link)
 
#22 ·
archer66, here is something you might consider using. This is a photo of a young pup. She was older than yours (9 months) and was well past FF at the time. Daisy was a very precocious pup (like yours).

At that age, she was running a tower shoot......the youngest by far working that day. "Euro" shoots mean many exciting retrieves, adrenelin "boosts" and distractions including often crippled, big rooster pheasants .

In order to have more control over her delivery, she was wearing a short tab. This allowed me to take hold of it and "settle her down" before asking her to "give" any retrieve. It provided the opportunity to impress upon her, "Hey....remember me? and what you are supposed to do?" The focus was on responsiveness.



Here's a link for all the photos featuring Daisy's tab.

Pheasant Tab (link)
Ok....as to slowing things down....I haven't been requiring him to heel and sit between retrieves because we're only for sessions into formalizing heel. I have kept field training and obedience somewhat separated and I had planned to start requiring more of him in terms of that in the next week since he now is progressing well on HEEL, SIT, HEEL. I have allowed him to savor the bumper between retrieves part of the time.....but from what you folks are saying I can see that it's time to settle him down and expect more.

I appreciate the feedback immensely. Funny....I was more concerned about the obedience aspect of his training than I was about his field work yet the field work is what nearly all of the advice I've received has been toward. I'm glad I covered his entire progress (obed and field) in my original question.....it gave you folks a chance to pick up on areas that need work. I'm sure if I can get video you'll see more deficiencies.
 
#23 ·
archer66,

I think what Kwick is telling you is that you can further develop that heel lesson you are working on by helping him and requiring him to heel during field work. Don't "expect" him to heel, but help him heel. Bring him in, grab that tab or leash or collar, and guide him to the position you want him. Don't reach for the bumper, don't try to take it, and don't "say" heel expecting him to know what you mean. Bring him into heel, get him to sit (all the time holding the bumper), then say heel, once he's there. This is going to take a minute. If the fussing causes him to drop the bumper, don't sweat it. As you said, FF will fix that. Even if he drops the bumper, get him to heel and calm down before sending on the next retrieve. Kwick makes a great point that the frantic pace of retrieve, get set, go will make it really hard to get him to calmly watch and remember multiples later (any chance that he turns into a crazy whirling dervish between that first throw of the memory bird and the second throw when you are working on doubles????).

As for your obedience question specifically, I think there's a lot to be said for understanding the difference between a lesson being "ingrained" or "proofed" and "overtraining" a certain lesson. I, too, am following Smartwork and have found that I have a tendency to train every lesson until it's perfect. The problem is, the dog gets the message a long time before I believe it's perfect. I have found that once I am convinced the dog KNOWS the perfect response, even if he isn't scoring perfect tens on every drill we do, the tools are their to perfect and strengthen the lesson in the field. You have to read the dog on this, but if you know for sure that he knows how he is supposed to respond, you can hold him to that standard in the field and correct sternly if he doesn't respond correctly.

Maybe Evan will reply to this to verify my take on this difference between "ingrained lesson" and "perfect drill performance."
 
#24 ·
I am using Smartworks, just a little behind you. I have a 7 mo. old who I just CC'd to "COME" and I am about to embark on sit/heel. But I don't really know how to apply stick pressure. The OB video is in the mail to me, and I'm hoping it'll explain, but:

How do you use the stick? Like, literally what do you do with it. Tap the dog repeatedly? Press on the dog's rump? Tap her nose/chest? And when to you release whatever pressure you apply?
 
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