I don't run senior but every 4-5 years (when I get a new pup) and was asked a couple questions at the latest hunt test that I wasn't sure of.
1). In the above link I read that Seniors has a diversion shot but at a couple of the last tests I've been to there were diversion birds in senior. Since I usually run Masters I wasn't too concern but some folks in the Gallery were. Is'nt this allowed?
2). at Seniors the land blind was ran out side of the marks, however; there was a diversion bird thrown and the blind was between one of the marks and the fall area of the diversion bird. Since the diversion bird is not a mark is this allowed?
I didn't see too many dogs have problems with these senerios but I would like to be able to answer these correctly while the gallery is going batty.
In Senior, there must be a diversion shot and there may be a diversion bird. The blind cannot be run between the marks in a SH test but it could be run between a mark and a diversion bird, since that is not a mark. That would be a very meaty SH test.
I have a question on diversions... let’s say the thrower is late on the diversion throw and is thrown on the side/angled back away from the dog as he returns. Can the dog stop on route, turn his body and mark the diversion as it falls, then promptly return to the handler? Or is the dog required to not stop at all?
"Diversion birds shall always be initiated in front of the working dog. The diversion bird is not a mark but constitutes a trainability situation. It is always retrieved by the working dog. Diversion birds shall be shot or thrown when the working dog is in a location that it should be able to see the bird as it goes up into the air and as it falls."
"(7) While diversion shot(s) shall be used, diversion bird(s) may be used. Such diversions may also consist of, or be incorporated with the use of one or more hidden duck or goose calls.
(8) Dogs that switch shall be scored “0” in Perseverance and cannot receive a Qualifying score."
It is not necessary to stop your dog, and blowing a sit whistle to let your dog, sit, mark the fall, and return to heel is perfectly acceptable.
Couldn't the diversion be initiated in front the dog and still fall behind the dog... If so... What if you dont blow a sit whistle and your dog just natraully stops and marks the diversion to the ground? Is that something a judge would mark down for?
No, just because the dog wasn't verbally or physically commanded to sit, there's no way for the judges to tell the dog just hasn't been trained to sit everytime a bird is thrown. If your dog sat and dropped the bird he had, but picks it back up, you could be marked down in trainability. But as long as your dog doesn't switch and pick up the diversion bird you'll be fine.
As to the initial question: whether a blind could be placed between a mark and a diversion bird at the senior level. This is not prohibited by the rules. However, the reason for the rule that the blind be placed outside of the marks is so that the senior dog is not influenced so heavily by the old falls. Common sense tells you that you would not want to make a transition level dog have to ignore the fall area of the diversion bird while running a blind.
Why not? If you are training to "finish" your dog at the senior level then you may have a point. Most are striving for a finished, polished master level dog. I have a dog that has just turned two, 4/4 in senior not quite their yet for my standards to play the master game, but we are close, I can easily handle her off any diversion bird or mark that may suck her in. Once the whistle blows she knows, I run the show not her. As my training partner says, "this ain't Burger King, you don't get it your way".
Backwater, I was speaking from a judge's point of view.
Senior is the most difficult level to set up for and to judge because it is supposed to fairly evaluate a dog that is in transition between running the tests using mostly natural skills at Junior and having excellent, trained skills to work though almost anything at the Master level. It is important to understand what a dog at the Senior level should be able to do and not set up a test beyond what their skill level should have prepared them for.
Oh the other hand, I understand, as a trainer that you should be looking toward the ultimate goal you have for your dog and working towards that level of expertise.
A judge needs to remember that we are not training, we are testing. We have to know how to set up for and evaluate the skills for each level. If a senior test is set up as a master test minus one bird, what's the point of running Senior?
As a handler, does it feel good to know that you have prepared your dog to handle master level concepts when you are running Senior tests? You bet it does, because no matter how well prepared you think you are, you know that anything can happen on test day.
Common sense tells you that you would not want to make a transition level dog have to ignore the fall area of the diversion bird while running a blind.
Thanks I was on the right track, I felt it was a meaty but fair test. Many folks got some answers I don't think most of them really wanted to ask the question.
I don't run senior but every 4-5 years (when I get a new pup) and was asked a couple questions at the latest hunt test that I wasn't sure of.
1). In the above link I read that Seniors has a diversion shot but at a couple of the last tests I've been to there were diversion birds in senior. Since I usually run Masters I wasn't too concern but some folks in the Gallery were. Is'nt this allowed?
2). at Seniors the land blind was ran out side of the marks, however; there was a diversion bird thrown and the blind was between one of the marks and the fall area of the diversion bird. Since the diversion bird is not a mark is this allowed?
I didn't see too many dogs have problems with these senerios but I would like to be able to answer these correctly while the gallery is going batty.
You are always at the mercy of the judges and your dog.....What you learn becomes experience for the next time you decide if you are ready.....Most of the time.....Your dog is ready, not always, their training and yours, but what about the next time? Are you a team that can handle from what you experience from the last test?????? The major question is......Are you a team?????
Edit to post: I might add that was taught to me from my dad when we where in the Pointing dog agenda of dog games in the 70s....He was very successful in that arena and had many ribbons and Best of Bred, He did also did many painting for dogs for clients....His advice to me was in any venture that you care to take was to: "Trust your friends, but trust your enemies closer"........ Take this advice and you will excel. Understand that there are those who will do some stuff to gain to their advantage....This is way the world is and will always be......Sadly...
A judge needs to remember that we are not training, we are testing. We have to know how to set up for and evaluate the skills for each level. If a senior test is set up as a master test minus one bird, what's the point of running Senior?
. Lady you hit the nail right on the head with this .......Thumbs up to you.
Vicky, if more judges took your approach, Hunt Tests we be far less frustrating for the newbie and far more instructional for the others. Just too much common sense here, where's the drama?
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/f4c3d37d#/f4c3d37d/46
2). at Seniors the land blind was ran out side of the marks, however; there was a diversion bird thrown and the blind was between one of the marks and the fall area of the diversion bird. Since the diversion bird is not a mark is this allowed?/QUOTE]
That would be outside the scope of what is envisioned for a SH test. The "no blind between the marks" is the real issue here. If a diversion is thrown outside either mark and the the blind is run up the middle between them, this is the same thing as far as the dog is concerned. He doesn't know about scoring or terminology. He simply knows there was a bird on the ground and that the handler seems to want him to go get it again and then...he's wrong.
What Senior skills are the judges testing in this set-up? Are they going to grade lower if a dog shows that the mark was there? What if he simply turns his head or deviates in course to go through the area? Hunt the old fall? Or, suppose he pops at the diversion bird? Do you really mark down for the pop at this location in SH?
Others have said it....the Senior dog is in transition between the pure but simple skills of the JH dog and the mastery of all skills and exercises of the MH dog. Why give a Senior dog a test of trainability that is really a master skill?
The diversion would be thrown when the dog is coming back from the last mark and it would appear before the dog....in effect roughly between the dog and handler.
Once the dog returns with the mark, it's sent for the diversion. Now that the diversion is picked up, a blind up the middle between one mark and the diversion would be the same as between the two marks since to the dog, a bird is a bird. At least that's how I see it.
Yes, that's how it seems! I was thinking the diversion bird was shot on way back from blind, not second mark. Two different animals!
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