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MH Blind- poor initial line

5K views 27 replies 14 participants last post by  rbr 
#1 ·
Curious, master judges, if youre judging a master dog, and it takes a poor initial line, but goes a short distance and handler corrects the line, putting dog back on course, and continues running the blind . How big a penalty do you give for the P.I.L ? And, at what point would you need to see that handler correct the dogs' line ?
 
#2 ·
Judges usually have some obvious bush, log, rock or other feature that you need to be right or left of. I have upon occasion had my dog launch way off line, it has been my experience that if I stop my dog the second I recognize the bad line (maybe 5-15 yards), and am able to cast him back on line without too much of a fight, we get called back. I see a lot of titled dogs under your signature so I suspect you know this allready.

John
 
#3 ·
The line to the blind is the line to the blind. You and your dog are a team ,therefore work as a team and let me judge the performance. Most likely you will be fine if you work at keeping them on line as best you can.
 
#4 ·
This is not a field trial, but a hunt test.

In my opinion, the PIL does not really matter as much, as what happens after that. If the handler put the dog back on line with one cast, no harm no foul (good team work). If the dog and handler fight after multiple whistles / casts (bad team work), then it is a different issue.

Of course, it is all in what one envisions when they read the scenario on the internet.....lol
 
#6 ·
If your dog has a poor initial line and you stop him quickly you might get dinged a little for perseverance but if you stop him and get him back on line quickly and cleanly you should have no problem attaining a passing score. A further note if your dog has a clean crisp stop and takes a good cast to the blind you might make up the ding on credit for trainability.
 
#20 ·
IMO a PIL is probably a ding in trainability category, rather than perseverence. However if the PIL was due to not entering the water or some rough cover, then it could be a perseverence issue.

Section 13. In Senior and Master Hunting Tests, failure
to enter either rough cover, water, ice, mud, or any
other situation involving unpleasant or difficult going for
the dog, after having been ordered to do so several times,
is sufficient cause to grade the dog “0” in Perseverance.
 
#7 ·
Interesting question, enters a HT grey area. I've had a high dog, false-start on a blind and get only ~ 3-5ft from me off the line before I stop and cast them, but I've seen people bring the dog back on something like that as well and resend. I believe it's safer to stop and cast, but I've had judges ask me why I didn't just re-heeled. Still I've also seen people, under different judges failed for re-heeling after a false-start on a blind.

So the rule I live by is when and if the dog goes, as soon as I notice the dog is off-line, even @ 3-5ft, stop and cast, sure this might completely destroy your momentum, but it's safer than bringing them back or letting them gain speed while off-line and casting. Judges might accuse you of cheating the blind if you do something like that, a blind is all about control, In a HT your much better off attempting to get them back on-line as soon as you can than letting them run off of it ;).
 
#16 ·
Not a judge, and don't have a lot of experience in this area, but it would seem to me that you should at least get dinged for a poor initial line, but I wouldn't think dropped as long as you stopped him and got him back on line quickly. Also, since there are subsequent opportunities to run blinds, I'd think the judge would be paying attention to your next blind(s) to see if the poor initial line was an anomaly or the norm for the dog/handler.

So what if the work on all 3 blinds is decent enough to pass other than poor initial lines on all three. Seems to me like a master level dog should be able to take a decent line.

I guess perseverance might factor in if the poor initial line was due to some obstacle that the dog wanted to avoid. Like, lined up on heavy cover and he takes an initial line that would go around the cover.
 
#17 ·
I treat a PIL as a cast refusal, no more than that as Pup did not take the line his handler (should have) intended. The quicker pup gets back in good position for the blind, the better. (Why? 'Cause that's the way I was taught and it makes sense to me.) But I also tend to judge not the original error, but the recovery so if pup gets back in the fairway and stays there that PIL is not going to hurt him. After all, we build blinds so handlers can show us that their dogs can handle. But, if that PIL is carried for some distance, or if Pup does not respond to attempts to get back in position, the original error starts to compound quickly.
 
#18 ·
It is what it is, a poor initial line. I have a couple fairly highly trained dogs that know how to run blinds, that said, every once in awhile, for whatever reason, one of my dog's surprises me with a bad IL. It's not the end of the world, as a matter of fact, if we recover quickly and smoothly, it won't effect the trial a bit at the end of the day. A good IL gives you a step up on completing a pleasing blind, a bad IL puts you in a hole right off the bat, what you need to do as a handler is not panic and get your dog back on line with the least fuss possible, then complete the blind correctly.

If you refuse to recognize the bad IL and let it get out of hand, then handle your dog back into the picture from way outside the peramiters, or have to fight your dog and hack him back on line, you will probably fail it.

John
 
#19 ·
Thanks for all the thoughful answers. It would seem that an automatic failure for a PIL (and that alone) is not the norm among sensible judges. I know that, that alone would not make me even consider failing a dog , but, as I said, it happened. ( years ago-)
 
#21 ·
I'm sure I presented a scoring challenge once under this PIL scenario. The dog went exactly where I lined him up - 30 degrees off the line to the blind. He then carried the cast 90 yards (angle back!) from 30 yards out directly to the bird. Tough to fault the dog - what category gets dinged for handler astigmatism?
 
#23 · (Edited)
Good question for you hunt test judges.

I actually did something like this at my first AKC Hunt Test judging seminar back in the early ninties. It was a simulated Senior water test with a blind angled across a narrow slough of water. Being naive, and treating as I would hunting I sent my dog straight across the water, probably a thirty yard swim, then gave him a twenty yard "over" to the bird. My training buddy who was more advanced than me, kept is dog on line the whole way to the bird, probably five cast in the water. After we were done there was a lively discussion about why Jim's job was better than mine, but the AKC rep pointed out that in this scenario, my job was faster and smoother than Jim's and he would have a hard time scoring me down on it.

I think hunt test judges are judging more by field trial standards now than they did back then.

John
 
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