RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

Home vs Field

5K views 22 replies 18 participants last post by  Hunt'EmUp 
#1 ·
I was told by a veteran trainer that labs know context. That labs are smart enough to distinguish between play time at the house and work in the field, as long as no one but me gives the dog commands. My concern is that some of my family members play keep away with a football with the dog, they tell him to sit, they give him multiple commands to release the ball, they tug of war with him, among other commands. I can not work him everyday nor can I hunt with him every weekend. Will he be ok for next fall if I keep at least some kind of a regular training routine?

Another issue I am noticing, he tends to favor the other members in the house and listens to me less when they are around. Is this a reflection of the dog knowing who lets him get away with things and who is the strict parent?
 
#3 · (Edited)
They are a lot smarter than we give them credit for. They definitely know the difference between work and play. They also know how much they can get away with, and who lets them away with what. For example my wife often doesn't reinforce her commands with our dog, and she ends up having to nag or repeat commands ...for example to get Cooper off the bed goes like "OFF!...come on get off the bed! Off the bed now!" in a more stern voice - which sometimes works for her, Whereas if I go into the room... I can say "off" and he's on the floor no questions asked. Heck I can snap my fingers and point and that's enough to get my point across.

Something else to consider....how many field dogs do double duty as a playmate for the kids and a hunting dog in the fall?? More than you and I care to count I'm sure. Do you think that when buster is playing in the yard he gets proper commands? And they are reinforced? Not likely!

IMO keep YOUR standards up and YOUR commands consistent and your dog will listen to YOU. But it would sure help eliminate headaches if your family members were all on the same page with your commands and goals for your dog.
 
#5 ·
Chef raises a point that has worried me some. It's hard on the dog to have one standard at home and another in the field. And spouses (and/or kids) just don't do it like we do. I can visualize exactly what he's talking about. We teach our dogs specific commands. Sit, here, down or place... we put them where we want them to be. But the spouse gets frustrated and yells... "Get out of my way!" which does the dog little good. No one has taught her what "Get out of the way" means! I try to tell hubby that if the dogs are underfoot, take them to their dog-bed and tell them "Here! Down!"

Oh well
 
#6 ·
I am with agreement that your commands are yours for the dog and others in the family need to get on board.
Some fun play with others and yourself is fine. Dogs can tell the difference between work and play. My concern is you may not have the time to keep up with your dog as the family intervenes.
Right now I am working with my wife and "her dog" to get them working together like I know he was taught. Him and I are a good team, now trying to get my wife more involved more as she is the one that will run him in his UPT and HZP this summer. He knows the commands but gets confused because the wife just does not do it like me. We will get it but it's hard right now. Good Luck
Don
 
#7 ·
My family knows to use the same words that I do (boy that took some work in the beginning) such as sit, down, off, and wait. They don't need to know fetch or heel, and I tell them not to use stay. The dogs know I have a higher standard than the others, but at least they aren't confused by being told "down" when one of the grandkids really means "off." They also know that "heel" at an obedience test means something quite different than "heel" at a hunt test. I spent a lot of time worrying about conflicting commands between retriever venues and the obedience ring: a well-respected trainer whose dogs have multiple OTCHs and AFCs says she uses the same commands in both venues and the dogs know the difference (Bridget Carlsen.)

As for next fall, you'll need to find time to train on obedience and retriever skills on some kind of schedule or he's going to get pretty sloppy, but you can incorporate a lot into a normal day. Use your heel and sit commands throughout the day/evening. You can do bumper drills in the yard a couple of times a week, hold and fetch/no fetch, and even do small wagon wheel drills. Get him out as often as you can for marks and blinds, anything is better than nothing. Ask him to retrieve the paper.

As for ignoring you when the family is around: it sounds like he needs to learn to perform for you with distractions (the family is a pretty big distraction.) Don't give him commands that you aren't prepared to enforce, but when you do and he ignores you, you're going to have to insist he do it. A couple of weeks doing heel, sit, down, and stay in full training mode in the house or yard with the kids around and his obedience ought to improve.
 
#8 ·
I think thats just life. Unless your better half and kids are aspiring trainers you're going to deal with this. Drives me nuts too because I know when I'm not home the land is lawless but dogs are smart and know the difference. He listens to me and thats all that matters. You can't control everything - this rule applies to all things in life.
 
#9 ·
I think my dogs learn who they have to lesson to and who don't have to. My dogs won't jump on me, but all bets are off when it comes to my wife. It comes down to her timing is to slow to get a correction in.

I don't let anyone play tug of war with any of my dogs, just one of my thing. I don't know if this could teach a bad habit, but don't want to find out.

I think if a dog has been force fetch, the person throwing something to retriever needs to know when to stop before the dog can over heat.

My 2 cents
David Wolfe
 
#10 ·
Dogs need structure. Dogs also need leadership as part of that structure and if you and family members choose not to provide leadership for the dog, the dog will provide it for you on his terms (NOT GOOD). A key element to to training specific and desired behaviors is consistency. As an example, SIT does not mean the dog sits every now and then when you have repeated the command several times without compliance and then the dog finally does it. A command of SIT taught properly, reinforced appropriately, and demanded consistently will result in the immediate and consistent compliance to that command.

"TUG OF WAR"??? Why train in and perhaps entrench behavior that you will find highly undesireable down the road? Such behavior may need to be "trained out" later, or may not be possible at all if highly established within the dog. It is far better to prevent problems and not need to correct them later when to do so will only lead to frustration and confusion for yourself and the dog later.

TRAIN THE TRAINER(S)! In other words, have a meeting and perhaps several sessions together (all having contact with and being in a position of giving care and commands to your dog) making sure you are ALL on the same page across the board. Use consistent commands, demand consistent compliance to taught and known commands, use similar reinforcement (reward) for compliance to those commands, and eliminate dysfunctional behaviors that will only cause you and the dog problems and frustration as time goes on and those behaviors become more fully entreched.

Identify what it is you expect and want from your dog. Create a "training log book or journal", I use a daily planner finding that is a great format for the intended purpose. Write down the objectives and goals you want to achieve with your pup / dog and consider what it will take in terms of training strategy and methods used to reach those goals. Once you have a concrete objective and a plan on how you can achieve it, it WILL make those objectives much easier to achieve. The daily planner format lets you track what you have gained with the passage of time, allows you to keep track of time actually spent or not spent in training your dog, allows you to "revisit" and reinforce behaviors previously taught and to further reinforce and entrench to behaviors within the dog, and it allows you to set clear objectives to work toward within the context of future time. It is important to realize that all dogs learn at their own rate based on their own inherent ability. Incrementally move forward with your objectives, but continually revisit those desired behaviors taught foundationally to keep those sharp, consistent, and well maintained.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
Irishwhistler
 
#11 ·
"TUG OF WAR"??? Why train in and perhaps entrench behavior that you will find highly undesireable down the road? Such behavior may need to be "trained out" later, or may not be possible at all if highly established within the dog. It is far better to prevent problems and not need to correct them later when to do so will only lead to frustration and confusion for yourself and the dog later.......
Cheers,
Irishwhistler
while this sounds sound, it is an old wife tail.
retrievers are able to play tug.
 
#12 ·
Ken,
Not to contest your stance on "tug of war", but I don't agree with your stance that generalizes that retrievers can play tug of war with little negative effect. Though I have no hard data to go by, I would think that doing so may be more problematic with dogs that had not been force fetch conditioned, the problems I see as the potential for reluctance to release birds "delivered" to hand, and for that of "hard mouth" type handling of birds. Again, far from scientific, but I still say why cause problems for that which is preventable. JMHO.

Irishwhistler
 
#14 ·
I have done it both ways. In the distant past, I was more old-school. To me field dogs were meant to live in a kennel and dealt only with me, trainer, vet, etc. My current pup is 5 mos, live in the house, and spends a lot of time with wife and kids when I am not there. I had all of the same concerns you have, but our new pup is doing great in this arrangment, probably more well rounded than my other dogs were. My wife and kids play with and care for the pup as they would with any family pet, and I have not noticed any problems. The only "rule" I have is is they do not sit and/or steady the dog for a play retrieve. I think your relationship with the dog will be whatever you make of it in the time you spend with the dog training, hunting and bonding.

Good Luck. Enjoy the entire dog.
 
#17 ·
Irishwhistler,
I have actual data as I've used tugging as a form of reinforcement and as a way to manipulate my dogs' state of drive during training, particularly with my youngest. There's not a problem with tugging per se. It depends on how you play the game. With my dogs, tugging has rules. The same rules would apply if I just wanted tug to be a fun game with the dog.

Some basic rules of tugging include: (1) the dog must release the tug toy immediately when requested to do so; (2) if I toss the tug, the dog must pick it up and return it to me immediately; and (3) I decide when the game starts and ends. The dog learns these rules through training. Tug as a game with rules is a skill that's taught incrementally. When my young dog was first learning the rules of the game as a little pup, she got lots of opportunities to practice releasing the toy when I asked her to. As soon as she released the tug toy, I immediately offered it to her again and told her to get it. Her earliest experience was that giving something up meant that she'd get it right back. Getting the toy back was great reinforcement for releasing it and shaped a prompt and reliable release. You can ask a dog to release a tug toy many times during a short game of tug. Repetition builds behavior! Over time, she learned that she didn't always get things back immediately, or ever. By that point, it was of no concern to her. She has never been sticky and her mouth habits are excellent. I think playing tug helped shape her into a dog that's not possessive of the retrieve object.

And as Ken mentioned, you don't tug with a bumper. Dogs know the difference between tug toys, bumpers, and birds.

I hope this was helpful in explaining how tug can be a good thing, if done properly.
 
#23 ·
I've never liked the idea of absolutes when it come to dogs, don't do this; never do that; it is very limiting, and dogs are individuals. Dogs are very capable of distinguishing context; they can learn to do a bunch of activities, and learn that in different situations, somethings are acceptable and others are not. That said age and experience has a lot to do with this. An older dog can distinguish things, that for a puppy not solid in a skill set could really mess them up. Ex; my older dog retrieves decoys and birds; she is 5 year old, I taught her when she was ~3; after she had a few seasons under her belt, and an MH title. She has a distinct command for it and would never pick -up a decoy over a bird. On the other hand my pup is ~1yr old; she's too young to be be allowed to pick-up decoys, she doesn't have enough age nor experience to know the difference. Different rules for different dogs, one is old enough with a solid skills that she's able to know the difference.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top