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Hey Lardy folks-

13K views 89 replies 27 participants last post by  copterdoc 
#1 ·
Am on my second Collar dog and followed Lardys' Total E-.

Things went great, but did something that I absolutely HATE doing. I continued on through CC' the way Lardy has it laid out, however found myself doing something that I do not fully have a grasp on, and I HATE that, and want to fully understand.
The segment where he burns the dog on SIT, while the dog is SITTING, and referred to it as indirect pressure really threw me off. Then at other times , (while using collar pressure), refers to it as direct pressure. O.K, that officially -----> :confused::confused: me.

To me, it's like pehaps using a HEELING Stick for re-enforcment, (or punishment if you will), and then considering it indirect pressure ..well,..because that's how I want the dog to "see it".

I can't read another sentence on Operant Conditioning, because the more I try to apply it to what Lardys' doing the more fustrated I get. I want to know how it applies.

Believe it could be me just not seeing the woods for the trees, but was wondering if some of you good folks could dumb it down for me, so this simple mind can "get it" .
Thanks.
 
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#2 ·
To me, it's like pehaps using a HEELING Stick for re-enforcment, (or punishment if you will), and then considering it indirect pressure ..well,..because that's how I want the dog to "see it".
Swamp I'm not sure you meant to say reinforcement = punishment.

Try this video and see if this perspective enlightens at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vel35MIwhrg
 
#10 ·
HNTFSH that's right- certainly didn't mean for that to come out like that!

Thanks for that vid, believe it may be starting to click a little better.

Something I keep reading,..and seeing- and that is, that every time I watch someone use collar pressure (even J.P.), in an example of direct pressure, it seems that there's NO command given in conjunction with the pressure, and it's refered to as direct pressure.
Am I making a sound observation on that?

Then,.. when a known command is given, and re-enforced with collar pressure I also see everybody refering to it as indirect pressure.
Am I seeing all of this the way I've described it?

Really appreciate everyones' input. The answer to all of this is right there floating around in my head, but just can't grab it.
It's like trying to remember exactly where ya' parked at Disney World.
 
#3 ·
Indirect pressure is not punishment. It is motivation to try harder. I know it seems irrational on the surface but it works very well.
Keep in mind that if you correct a dog while he is running he may not understand what he was doing wrong at the time. However, if you stop his feet it gives him a chance to clear his mind. Then when he receives the correction and the original command is repeated he will respond by trying harder to do it right.
 
#4 ·
I watched the video and am glad I did. I'd never seen it before. I think he does a good job overall, through repetition and lots of dialogue, explaining direct versus indirect pressure in different contexts.

I thought that at 4:52, when he explains "indirect pressure", it's not quite the way that I'd personally choose to explain it. It turns out that the dog did not run the initial blind the way J.Paul explained it at 4:52 anyhow, so it is a moot point.

What I mean by that is that the "indirect pressure" as was explained, involved a sit and a nick as the dog beached, without a preceding command with which the dog chose not to comply. To my mind, giving a sit nick when a dog beached, that long after the intial send would not be the best example of indirect pressure.

As it turned out, though, J.Paul did run it with a more "textbook" indirect pressure application. The dog was given the cast, the dog refused the cast, J.Paul stopped with a whistle, then gave the nick, then gave the cast again. The dog worked it out and definitely appeared to make the connection and learn something from it.


HNTFSH, thanks for the video link. Never saw it before. I miss seeing J.Paul around. He's one of the more colorful characters in the game.
 
#11 · (Edited)
What I mean by that is that the "indirect pressure" as was explained, involved a sit and a nick as the dog beached, without a preceding command with which the dog chose not to comply. To my mind, giving a sit nick when a dog beached, that long after the intial send would not be the best example of indirect pressure.
Hey Chris-
Re-read your post here and think you're on to this, but it's just not perfectly clear to me, whether or not he actually used pressure, (without a command), once the dog hit the shore.
There was no command, I know that much. But did he use pressure as soon as the dogs' feet hit land?
And again-
What I believe I'm seeing is that without a command,.. and then pressure simply coming out of "no-where", ..it's considered direct pressure.
Get me straight if I'm wrong about this. :)

Really appreciate everyones' help with this, it's driving me bonkers.

Want to add, that I might be getting caught up in semantics.
To me-
Collar pressure, (no matter what situation the dogs' in and no matter why pressure was used), is direct pressure, kinda' like a loaf of bread-
No matter how you slice it , it's still a loaf of bread.
Seems it's something about a command, (or the lack of), that makes the difference between the terminology, or rather--> how the dog percieves it.
 
#5 ·
I saw the same thing as Chris. My understanding of good use of indirect, is to sit the dog when he goes off line, (water or land) give a correcting cast, and then if he fails, to "Sit -Nick-Cast. I too enjoyed the video and think it would be very helpful for those that have not had an opportunity to watch this in person and learn from a mentor. Thanks for putting it out there, I had never heard of J. Paul. Think I like his stuff though.
 
#6 ·
I believe J Paul does a nice job there explaining the "full" concept of indirect, I believe that Mike also explains it fairly similar in TRT on disc 2 (I believe it's disc 2). The video is a god explanation, k9 contenders has some good videos of others too. Thanks for the video.
 
#7 ·
You'll drive yourself crazy trying to understand or put a label on why certain things work with dogs. Just know that indirect pressure has been used successfully to take many dogs to a very high level of training and they maintained a great attitude.
 
#8 ·
You'll drive yourself crazy trying to understand or put a label on why certain things work with dogs. Just know that indirect pressure has been used successfully to take many dogs to a very high level of training and they maintained a great attitude.
I agree with this comment. I can remember, and I don't recall exactly where or how Mike words it, that he talks about, in a single segment, all of the various quadrants of conditioning and training that take place. His comments were along the lines that it really doesn't matter too much if you try to identify and label all of the different components of the segment. In the end, it works. Lots and lots of dogs and trainers have come before the program to map out a system that works.

Many of us want to know exactly how the internal combustion engine functions, whether it have a carb or fuel injection. Many want to know exactly what makes what happen. Others find that it is just as practical to know how to properly operate the equipment and not get into the details.

I think there's no "right" or "wrong". I do think that some of us can advance more smoothly and create better results if we try to understand the umbrella concept and implement it, rather than break it down to bite-size chunks that require "explanation" for each piece.

And no, I'm not in any way implying that this is SwampBilly's intent.

Happy June 1, 2013 to all of you. I have a certain spouse who is celebrating a birthday today!

Chris
 
#9 ·
All good comments and agree totally on the umbrella understanding. Even keen DVD watchers and people 'trying hard' seem to wrestle grasping the difference.

Then imagine those that make it up as they go. And there's a gaggle of 'em.

Couple other nuggets were the factors of the wind to the shoreline hence knowing what to expect the dog to do. Moreover the direct Nic on the Pop and quick explanation on confidence.

Devils always in the detail.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Don't mean to keep ramblin' on, could be the concept is slooowly working it's way in dunno'.

It makes absolutely no sense to me that collar pressure used to re-enforce, (with a learned command for the dog to associate it with), would be punshment.

However, collar pressure without a command at all, (not even a whistle), seems it could be punishment.
If so-
HOW does the dawg know what it's being punished for from a distance!!??
Like a re-enforcing tap with the HEELING Stick after a SIT command. And the dog raises his rear end up, and I tap it again without a command.
Now, I know that dog will SIT back down. But from a distance using collar pressure as J.P. did, (or eluded to rather), HOW'S the dog know without a command what the collar pressure was for when/if the dog gets on the shore?
 
#13 ·
In my own personal opinion and view of "direct pressure" a command should still immediately precede the application of pressure. I personally avoid ever giving collar pressure unless it is preceded by a command. I believe Mr. Lardy would agree with this concept.

One direct pressure application that I use fairly frequently when I do group walks with four dogs simultaneously is "leave it". This is a universal command to stop sniffing the dead fish and don't roll in it. Get away from the snapping turtle, don't eat that discarded fisherman garbage on the bank, etc. The command "leave it" always precedes the nick.

Warner Smith (Garmin, formerly Tri-Tronics) recommended a Classic 70 for these group walks. I have found it works great. I tend to set the dial on a 1, 2 or 3. I can direct the stimulation to any of the dogs I'm walking.

In the Mike Lardy collar conditioning video, most all of that pressure application is direct pressure. It is the formalizing of the already known obedience commands in compliance with the collar pressure. "Sit - nick", "here-nick" etc. are used. I believe Mike does also introduce indirect pressure later in that video. (it's been a while since I've watched it) If Mike does, that's done in conjunction with some simple casting drills (ie, "mini t").

In my Amish days, I did a fair amount of indirect pressure, without realizing that's the label. The problem was the timing was very poor. Here's an example: I would have suction pulling pup to the right on a blind. I'd stop pup and give a left cast (over, back whatever). Pup would refuse and move right. I'd sit the dog on a whistle, then waddle, walk, run, etc. out to the dog. Then once I reached the dog, I'd issue some sort of correction (verbal, stick pressure, etc). Then move back to the line and repeat the cast. (or maybe not back all the way up to the line, since the dog tends to better take the correct cast when there's less distance between him and handler) The reason I say the timing was poor is that there's a delay between the stop whistle, issued after the improper response to the cast, and when I reached the dog. To my mind, this is the beauty of indirect pressure with collar corrections and part of why it is so effective. The timing can be quite close to the infraction, which appears to transfer much better to the dog's ability to connect the pressure with the incorrect response.

One thing I really like about J. Paul's video that was posted is his discussion of "effort". J. Paul points out that the trainer needs to identify effort or the dog trying as opposed to a lack of effort. If the dog is trying, but just doesn't quite do it right, that probably would not be a good time for any kind of collar pressure at all.

Direct pressure examples: "Here" with a tug on the lead, "sit" with a tug up on the lead or a tap on the rear with a stick, etc.

I personally avoid collar pressure without a preceding command.
 
#14 · (Edited)
This is the way it has been explained to me, as I was trying like you to understand why it works.

As J. Paul said, the reason for indirect is that you have too many possibilities for misplaced associations with direct pressure. If you correct on the beach, the dog may put the correction together with getting out, not with not running a straight line, which is different. Then you have the risk of inadvertently reaching your dog to be nervous about getting out of the water.

Notice also that indirect pressure will almost always be used in conjunction with "sit," because the dog should immediately recognize the sit whistle and know what to do to turn the pressure off, so it should provide a more stable response to the correction. I don't know how the next part happens, but I know that my dog, like the dog in the video, always responds better and at least gives better effort after an indirect correction like the one in the video.

For one example, you give your dog a right back and he turns left, which is essentially a cast refusal. You would immediately blow a sit whistle to stop him. If attrition, you would recast. If he again spins left, at that point you would blow a sit whistle - nick - sit. This apparently tells the dog two things: sit, which he understands and complies with, and apparently "Hey, clear your mind and watch what I am directing you to do." Magically, the dog sees my cast and does what I am asking about 90% of the time, but even if he does it wrong again he does it with more effort.

Like Chris says above, this process also makes sure that there is always a command preceding a correction. And the reason I used spinning the wrong way on a back cast is that it is difficult for me to envision a situation (other than the inability to see the cast) in which spinning the wrong way is not a lack of effort.
 
#17 ·
I too am confused by the Video!

As the dog first starts out, he pops! JPaul gives direct pressure in response to the Pop. (Nick, Back)

Then as the dogs line starts to deteriorate, and the decision is made by the dog to head to land, JPaul says he is "going to help him out".
JPaul gives a sit whistle (No correction) and a cast away from the bank. Dog really doesnt take that cast.. JPaul lets the dog beach, and waits till the dog clearly decides to go up the bank, then gives a whistle sit (I would have given the nick RIght then after the whistle),,, but JPaul,, gives the whistle sit again with a Nick!!

To me,, the dog showed it decided to get dirt,, so right then,(,Sit,Nick, cast) back into the water..
It is,,in my mind still INDIRECT PRESSURE because you Nicked on the sit command,, and followed that Nick with the cast you wanted..

I would not have given the sit whistle again followed by the nick,,as the dog was sitting.. That confused me..

In reality,,,, I probably would have worked on getting the cast away from shore in the first place, and forgot about the blind!

As soon as the dog LOOKED or gave any indication to want dirt,,, I would have blown the whistle, and cast away from shore! as the dog proceeded, if it looked or indicated again it wanted the shoreline I would have whistled and cast away from from again! I would have worked on getting that cast! No correction just attrition, even if I swam the dog a long ways off line from the blind... I want the cast!

There ! Bug in the OIntment!:):)

Gooser
 
#19 ·
In reality,,,, I probably would have worked on getting the cast away from shore in the first place, and forgot about the blind!

As soon as the dog LOOKED or gave any indication to want dirt,,, I would have blown the whistle, and cast away from shore! as the dog proceeded, if it looked or indicated again it wanted the shoreline I would have whistled and cast away from from again! I would have worked on getting that cast! No correction just attrition, even if I swam the dog a long ways off line from the blind... I want the cast!
Given the intent of the clip for distinguishing pressure J Paul prescribed exactly what the dog would do, and it did. I agree with casting back online which was the first cast given after correcting on the pop. The dog stayed wet, albeit hugging the shore. And then beached at a 90 degree angle. This gave the opportunity for J Paul to demonstrate the indirect.

Had he done otherwise wouldn't the clip have been about keeping the dog on a line?

It was a little sloppy on the cast refusal and him needing to square the dog back up and at the same time a good video example of a dogs reaction and how to work with it. Most people complain in their training videos the dog does it perfect and theirs don't.
 
#22 ·
Lardy's book states that he looks for behaviors which are lack of effort. These mistakes you look for on the 3 handed casting drill or out in the field. They can be corrected with IP. So you correct on the sit and sequence is "sit" nick "over" and an example Lardy uses is for a dog that freezes when casting and you correct on the sit for cast refusal. (Page 39) He really emphasizes to use this on known commands. DP in my mind can create hot spots when you really don't want so one has to be careful and judicious in their use of the collar. Lately have I have had to revisit this section and carefully go over the use of IP for my dog. I do use the buzz on my Dogtra but am thinking if he ignores the buzz he may need a nick. This is a big step for him, so we are going through the 3 handed casting etc. so he is well versed in the procedure and expectation. This is my interpretation of IP.IMO and hopefully I am interpreting that correctly from the booklet. JP's video was very good and informative. Thanks for sharing it.
 
#23 ·
Years ago, the late Jerry Harris was helping one of us out to try to grasp the difference between direct pressure and indirect pressure.

Here are his timeless words:

Originally Posted by Unca Jerry Harris


You send your teenage son to the mailbox. On the way he spots the neighbor’s voluptuous daughter in a bikini (factor). He immediately starts in her direction (succumbing to the factor).


You yell (whistle) Son!!!!!! (Handle). His eyes get back into focus and turns toward you and says “WHAT??” (responding to the whistle) For the Amish folks, you walk up to him and whop him upside the head!!! (correction=indirect pressure). You then say ‘You were told to go get the mail, now do what you were told!!!


That my friends is Indirect Pressure and why it works.”
 
#25 ·
Swamp - not to derail this direct/indirect pressure thing but have seen it complicated by what people perceive a dogs reaction to be either vocally or body language.

My current pup at 1 screams like a banshee. Complete Drama Queen. Must be the Cosmo in him. He was through FF a month and when my daughter came home from college and played with him in the yard and started 'rubbing his ears' he complained...lol.

Anyway - what's been your experience and more importantly comfort level with pressure, even if just direct? Confidence goes a long way so understand that's why you're asking about this.
 
#28 · (Edited)
Too funny^^.(Drama Queen stuff).

Have always used a HEELING Stick, but never used a Choker much- x-cept for those occasional "wild childs' who need some x-tra help. I really, really, like Lardys' employing of three forms, (well,.. 4 if when including audibles or 5 if including an ear pinch if neccessary) , of pressure. It makes for a completely different ball game-and for me, a LOT more manageable in terms of training, and with fewer REPS than before.

Inasfar as indirect pressure,( before collar training), it was hard to get it in there, timely , (from a distance either way) as perhaps the "comes with the territory woes" of non-force.

Don't know if I answered your question, (and assumed you weren't talking transmitter level), but am confident, (although I did keep moving along with CC-ing as per Lardy without fully understanding a concept), with using pressure. Glory part is there's more tools in the tool box now.
 
#32 ·
I wonder how something so simple seems to become so complicated and why must we analyze why it works, it works so other than intellectual curiosity who cares. Almost every correction in the field is the application of indirect pressure, i.e. dog makes a mistake, handler blows whistle and pushes button and the dog complies and sits, the only exception being when the dog fails to answer the whistle so when handler pushes button that becomes direct pressure. The truly gifted trainers are the ones whose timing when they apply indirect pressure is perfect thereby shortening the learning curve for the dog, timing is everything.
 
#35 · (Edited)
If you don't give a command, it's a cold burn.
Example, dog beaches early and you push the button.

If you give a command, and reinforce that command with pressure, it is BOTH direct AND indirect pressure at the same time.
You can't apply indirect pressure without also applying direct pressure. And vice-versa. It's not possible.

The difference is what we are doing with it.

If you are pointing your finger right at the problem with the command you give, that's probably direct pressure.
If you are trying to correct something else, that's probably indirect pressure.

For example, if the dog is rolling on a rotting fish, you could:
(1.) Light the dog up (cold burn).
(2.) Say LEAVE-IT and nick or burn (direct pressure).
(3.) Say HERE and nick or burn (indirect pressure).

Using indirect pressure is "safer" than a cold burn or direct pressure, because the dog isn't looking all over the place for something to "blame it on".

Because, you have a thoroughly conditioned command-pressure association, that the dog understands very well.

But, they still don't like the pressure. So, in the future, they are very likely going to avoid doing whatever "wrong" thing they were doing at the time that they were indirectly corrected.

Even when you force a dog out of a pop, you are primarily using indirect pressure.
Sure, you ARE using direct pressure on the command back. But, you are PRIMARILY using indirect pressure to make the dog less likely to pop in the future.

There does not have to be a refused command, for indirect pressure to be applicable. In fact, those are often the situations that indirect pressure is most useful. When you don't HAVE an enforceable command for exactly what the dog is supposed to do!
 
#37 ·
I understand JPaul is trying to demomstrate the topic of Indirect pressure with his Video, BUt,

Look at time 5:35 .
JPaul says he is going to help the dog, because clearly the dog is going to dirt. He whistles. gives and right ANGLE back cast. The dog really doesnt take it very well,, and definatly doesnt carry it very far..

So, when Rookie trainer read my post about what In REALITY I would do, I said I would after giving that angle back cast AWAY from shore,, that as soon as the dog even slightly turned its head or thought about going left to dirt, Another whistle,, and another Andle back cast! From them on, I would forget the blind,, and Get that cast, even if it meant swimming the dog way off line of the blind. I want the cast!!

If the dog would have taken JPauls cast at time Mark 5:35, the dog would have been in very good position, and Not got on that point of land. He would NOT have looked up the bank after Jpaul let him beach so as to demonstrate the indirect pressure..

He could have used indirect pressure the same way as when the dog wouldnt take the cast JPaul originally gave, each time the dog looked or even thought about shore,, another whistle,, and another angle back cast, forgetting about the blind,, but using indirect pressure to get the cast!

Am I wrong??

Feel Free!:):)

I'm NOT trying to tell anyone how to make a FC either,, but I think JPaul was more concerened about demonstrating Indirect pressure if the dog beached>>

Gooser
 
#42 ·
I understand JPaul is trying to demomstrate the topic of Indirect pressure with his Video, BUt,

Look at time 5:35 .
JPaul says he is going to help the dog, because clearly the dog is going to dirt. He whistles. gives and right ANGLE back cast. The dog really doesnt take it very well,, and definatly doesnt carry it very far..

So, when Rookie trainer read my post about what In REALITY I would do, I said I would after giving that angle back cast AWAY from shore,, that as soon as the dog even slightly turned its head or thought about going left to dirt, Another whistle,, and another Andle back cast! From them on, I would forget the blind,, and Get that cast, even if it meant swimming the dog way off line of the blind. I want the cast!!


Gooser
JPaul opened by stating the dog was young, and not trained on shoreline blinds. What JPaul demonstrated was exactly right. A dog in this early stage of training who doesn't recognize a clearly defined shoreline, should be allowed to make the complete mistake of stepping out of the water and getting dry... Then whistle - nick, then give the proper cast to get back in the water.

Gooser's point on taking the right cast is correct with a more seasoned dog. Generalizing that a young dog should take a cast no matter what... with new factors/concepts is not correct. The concept of staying wet and the temptation of getting out early is more important than the cast in this TEACHING scenario. It's also the appropriate time to use indirect pressure.
 
#38 ·
Ok, I got a question about timing. I think ive been using direct pressure mostly. I seem to blow the whistle and push button at same time.
Do you blow sit whistle and wait till dog turns and sits then nick whistle. (dog has a slow sit)
Lets say in water, would you blow whistle and wait for dog to turn and settle a little, then whistle nick whistle and wait a couple seconds and cast?
 
#40 ·
Im a slow learner.
And have caused problems, hoping to fix. I don't think he talks about timing? Or does he?
I guess my question was, do you wait till dog turns around and plants but on ground then nick, or blow whistle and push button instantly after whistle. Iwill re read lardys book. :)
 
#41 ·
I/we learned from Rex Carr and you did not wait for completion of the command to apply collar pressure always making sure that the whistle preceeds the collar so that the desired response is a reaction to the whistle and pressure rather than pressure at completion of the task. If the Lardy version differs from that it is hard to argue with success.
 
#45 ·
After training today, I saw this topic and waded through it. I have to say how frustrated I was reading it.

Direct and Indirect Pressure are really simple concepts and yet so many can’t seem to get it. It has been explained here on RTF in the past many times (Among others seemy sticky on Dog Learning Science). This post shows all kinds of erroneous interpretations from the Rex Carr original usage of the terms back in the 70’s. Some of the explanations here are quite incorrect.

Unlike many of you, I was very disappointed when I watched the J. Paul video. It is not a good explanation of how Lardy would do it. Not only does J. Paul describe Direct Pressure as a “cold burn”, he illustrates many other procedures that are in strong contrast to those that follow Lardy-the original query by the OP. He nicks on a first pop on a confused dog, he casts with the wrong arm causing a spin, he condones a dog going a long way after a decision to head for shore, he allows a dog to beach before correcting, he accepts an outright cast refusal, he blows a sit whistle when a dog stops in confusion(pop # 2), he repeats a blind back-to-back and more. This is the first video I have seen by him. And yet my own magazine has a Tri-tronics ad featuring him. But I do wonder how come so many of you thought this was a good video?

Pressure does not just come from the e-collar but let’s consider it for this discussion.

Anytime you command and follow with a nick whether concurrently or with a slight delay it is Direct Pressure on that command. Sit nick is Direct Pressure on the sit. Delaying the nick does not make it Indirect.
Such uses get well-conditioned and understood over time by the dog.
Thus, if you use them for other mis-behaviours such as not taking a cast correctly they can act indirectly. Example, Dog does not take a cast. You blow sit whistle and nick. This is Direct pressure on the Sit. The dog knows how to comply. However,it has an Indirect effect on the casting error if the timing is good-that is at the instant of the mis-behaviour (poor effort to cast by the dog). The dog gets pressure when he made the wrong decision. While it is Direct Pressure on the sit it Indirectly affects the behaviour of the poor cast response. It`s a heavy duty slap in the face (see Jerry). Thus, we call it Indirect Pressure (It is Indirect affecting the casting behaviour)
It is not hot-spot training which J. Paul is advocating by allowing the dog to land! In his example it doesn`t matter what he does, he is correcting for the location-he is not correcting for the behaviour and decision which clearly happened much earlier in the video. Why do you want a young dog to be afraid to land?

I am not saying that his method is not and cannot be used but I am saying this is not the Lardy or original Rex Carr usage. When you can consistently beat their results let me know.
 
#48 ·
He nicks on a first pop on a confused dog,
Mr. Voigt-
It's quite an honor to have you here, and thanks for your interest.
Would very much like to see/read what you're seeing through your professional eyes. Have no mentors, I learn on my own.

When he nicked the dog BACK when the dog popped, do you believe it was perhaps the factors that created initial suction, (confusion) to the shore, or do you believe the dog was confused from the time he made a water entry and swam 5yds.? It seemed to me the initial line deteriorated after about 5yds..
Thanks for your thoughts.
 
#46 ·
Thanks Dennis.

This whole conversation has been a cluster---!

JS
 
#50 ·
Dennis, thank you for a great post.
And for linking it to the classic Jerry Bikini factor!
I just watched the vid.
So...... to branch of a wee bit.
You all know all those threads about the pro and con of running to a big white bucket?
Do you think it is just happenstance he put his orange ribbon and orange bumpers next to that big white drain pipe??
Or that the dog went to and sniffed it afore picking up the bumper, each time?
a blind placement I do not recomend. In a pond you can drive all the way around he could have had the same wind and bank factor running from big white drain pipe to the point of origin he used. Don't teach your dog to run to white.
 
#56 ·
I noticed that white pipe right away and wondered if it was planned. If so, he should have said so. I don't mind a small visible marker at the end of a blind with a youngster. The lesson here was a shoreline blind with a cross wind and I wouldn't want to get in a handling battle at a distance with a young dog. I wouldn't be looking to have the white visible from line but as I said we don't know if this dog has had a water blind before, or taught channel blinds. All we know is he has done swim-by and cheating singles what ever that might include in his program.
 
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