RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

Hunt test and pros

15K views 90 replies 44 participants last post by  Golddogs 
#1 ·
I see often either straight up criticism or veiled criticism of pros running hunt test with too many dogs.

First thought I have is how many of us would even be at hunt tests without the help of a pro trainer somewhere along the line. Either at our beginning or even ongoing help like I get.

Second thought is how would hunt tests fair without the professional trainers and their trucks of dogs. Financially I doubt there would be very many hunt tests available because of costs, much of which are covered by the truck loads of dogs.

I suspect most of us are doing this for the love of dogs, the sport or hunting off season.

For me it as a huge THANK YOU to all the help I have received from my friendly pro Darrin!
 
#2 ·
John,

I think maybe you've misinterpreted the typed word versus the intended commentary by most. There are few here who haven't used a pro at some point and time. Heck, I heard even Bubba uses one once and a while. I think the main frustration is the lack of participation by the owners of dogs on the pro trucks. Not the pro's themselves.

If a pro has 15 dogs on his truck and runs a weekend hunt test, how many volunteers show up with that pro truck with 15 dogs on board? When 15 dogs show up in crates in the back of SUV's, Honda's and pick ups, how many volunteers show up with those 15 dogs?

Owner participation needs to be encouraged or, required at some point or this sport will, out of neccessity, become "for profit" events.
 
#3 ·
John, I agree that hunt test pros are a valuable asset to the HT community. I think, at least on my part, that the difficulty lies in that the game has changed drastically because of the "competitiveness" of the Master National. Dogs are no longer being tested as "Master" dogs and it has gotten out of reach to most weekend trainers.Most of the dogs being run are pro trained.Look at the discussion regarding the Master National standards being turned into a competition. That already exists in Field trials. I stopped at the SH level and went to Field Trials because the same amount of time and technical water is needed to train to the master level.The distances are longer.

Jeff
 
#7 ·
How many volunteers, seems to be a valid question. However without the so called pro's and other interested individuals we can all stay home on the weekends and remember WHEN!
 
#8 ·
Paul makes a good point. I try and help when I can.It seems that help is at a premium any more. I still think the problem lies with the lack of ability and/or time for many to participate on their own even at the SH and then and the pro runs the dog. I use a pro because of the amount of time and expertise involved in developing an All Age dog.
 
#9 ·
When people use a pro to train and run their dogs, there is no impetus for them to join a club. Therefore many of these folks don't, which means that other than writing a check they don't participate in or support our sport. This is, as Paul pointed out, where the problem comes in.

As more and more people opt for this approach to the HT game, there are less folks out there putting on these tests and those that do year after year burn out. The folks putting all the effort into putting on tests for those that don't or won't pitch in find they have even less time to train their own dogs which is the whole reason they got involved. Many clubs don't have resources to hire help for the tests and IMO you are going to see many clubs either going under or just not having tests.

FT will survive because they have always been the playground for the well to do, while HT were supposed to be for the average working person.

Dawn
 
#12 ·
That sounds great.
 
#15 ·
I use pro's to train all my "Goldens" and "I" run the hunt tests with them, not the pro's. I love running hunt tests, the pro's we meet are always helpful, and the people and dogs at the tests are great! I do this primarily because I love to hunt birds. Working with trainers and then using hunt tests to reinforce my handling and my dogs performance is a wonderful thing. I have never taken a dog beyond 'started' or 'JR' although all of my dogs handle well on blinds in actual hunting situations (I can get them to the bird). Until this year I worked, now I am retired....my new pup, will get added pro training, more work at home and I hope to take her all the way on hunt tests...As far as helping at the hunt tests, I would prefer to pay a separate fee, but I have jumped in and helped carry birds, clean up, after events, etc.
 
#17 ·
The more dogs the merrier,,,this insures we can pay for everything. The more dogs that enter means you can hire more help so you don't walk around all weekend mumbling under your breath.
We usually have small entries and we manage to come out in the black and we hire help. When I hear about some of these big entry clubs loosing money because they have to hire help,,, then I would take a closer look at your booze bill and party fund. Or find some one who can spend the money more wisely.

pete
 
#18 ·
What percentage of Pro-run hunt test dogs, have the owner there watching his or her dog run? I would think that would be a pretty low number. On a normal weekend hunt test, how many out of State owner-handlers work the test versus Club members? Again, I would think a pretty low number. That's just the way it is with any hunt test or field trial, local club members put on the hunt test so that they can run their dogs and hopefully enough out of the area owners, can enter dogs and offset cost.

It sounds like things have changed a lot since I was running hunt test, back then the only reason I ever let a Pro run my dog was because he could travel to distant hunt that I couldn't due to work. I would think that most of the dogs on a Pro's truck are in the same boat. Hard to be upset with that isn't it? Are the entries so low you can't afford to hire bird throwers? I don't know if it's comparable, but when our club runs a field trial, we hire kids to man the gun stations, have the usual volunteer gunners for the live flyer and rely on club members for marshaling, traffic and the rest. We usually do a little more than break even. I just found out our Club has lost money every hunt test and is cancelling the hunt test this year, that tells me that we need more dogs entered and that a Pro with 12-16 dogs on his truck could save the day.

John
 
#23 ·
The reality is: HTs would not exist without participating pros.
:pros obviously can't be expected to help because they are too busy running dogs
: Not everyone will volunteer
: If someone chooses the let the pro run their dog it's noone elses business
: The complaint that pros have an advantage is nonsense, it's a test not a competition
: As an amature who has never had a pro trained dog the titles I earn are far more gratifying
having the knowledge that it was earned by my dog and myself.

Bert
 
#30 ·
The reality is: HTs would not exist without participating pros. :pros obviously can't be expected to help because they are too busy running dogs
: Not everyone will volunteer
: If someone chooses the let the pro run their dog it's noone elses business
: The complaint that pros have an advantage is nonsense, it's a test not a competition
: As an amature who has never had a pro trained dog the titles I earn are far more gratifying
having the knowledge that it was earned by my dog and myself.

Bert

How many really believe this? It's more like HT would not exist without working ams!
 
#27 · (Edited)
I don't care how many dogs anyone brings to a HT, be it pro or amateur.

Requiring dog owners to participate/volunteer? That will NEVER work. That would be the first step in eliminating pros.

When I go to a HT I go to 1) enjoy myself, 2) test my dog, 3) watch other dogs perform.

I think when a club hosts a HT then the hosting club should have all of their ducks in a row before hosting said event i.e. having secured all of the labor necessary to host said event BEFORE posting premiums. That being said, I am a member of two different clubs and I don't mind pitching in and helping out with anything that my limited mental capacity is capable of doing. I am always willing to assist with my clubs or any club where I am present.

Lonnie Spann
 
#28 ·
I had the opportunity to train with a legendary figure in the retriever world last weekend. I learned a lot about training a dog for sure. What I was most impressed with was this gentleman's observation that the dog games need a lot more entry and participation from younger people or they will cease to exist. That's a HUGE part of the reason he was spending his Saturday and Sunday fooling around with me rather than sitting in his recliner watching TV.

IMHO, what it really comes down to is are you in it for the dogs or are you in it for your ego? This is overly simplistic, but those who are in it for the dogs are like Lonnie Spann and they will throw in and help in any way they can. If you are in it for your ego, you will write the checks and get the ribbons with as little personal investment as possible.

This is NOT a rant against the wealthy; in fact, it appears to me that personal wealth has very little to do with the decision except for whether you can write the checks in the first place. This is just my opinion. YMMV.
 
#29 ·
When people expect the 3 people totalling 40 dogs to "make or break" a hunt test bank account on a single event there is a serious instability with what needs to be considered a business model. Folks do this willy-nilly short sighted accounting and spending in clubs then one weekend two pro's don't show up and there isn't that big roll in the account anymore.
 
#31 ·
When the club needs that extra winger or holding blind, or maybe even a four wheeler to run birds around or move equipment and the "big bad PRO" with 12-15 dogs running says "here use mine" I think that should be apprecited and not expected. And I can think of more than one event where the pro has come up to help with moving equipment or offered one of their helpers to throw or plant a blind too. I see the pros being very accomodating when they are able and not running to 3 different venues to run dogs because the marshalls need them at all 3 spots at once.
 
#35 ·
When the club needs that extra winger or holding blind, or maybe even a four wheeler to run birds around or move equipment and the "big bad PRO" with 12-15 dogs running says "here use mine" I think that should be apprecited and not expected. And I can think of more than one event where the pro has come up to help with moving equipment or offered one of their helpers to throw or plant a blind too. I see the pros being very accomodating when they are able and not running to 3 different venues to run dogs because the marshalls need them at all 3 spots at once.
I think most all do the same. I don't think there is any discussion that they don't work and help "when they can". They are getting paid big bucks to run and concentrate on the dogs. The owners of those dog have expectations of ribbons at the end of the day.
 
#33 ·
How about this? Clubs like Pro's to bring thier client's money and clubs need the locals to manage the clubs tests. Its a SYMBIOTIC relationship. No Pros, less tests...no test, less Pros.
 
#37 ·
Not sure why when the discussion comes to Pro trainers that all of a sudden everyone gets all up tight that folks are bad talking the pros or, trying to eliminate them from the sport. That isn't going to happen and I don't know anyone who doesn't want them running dogs.

What I've seen and others followed comments that more individual owners need to get involved. The pro's don't need to go away, they need to bring some owners or, get the owners handling their own dogs more often.
 
#38 ·
I will throw birds all day just to get the chance to learn and advance.
How will you feel after 20 years of doing it?

There comes a time when the best motivated will burn out from it.
 
#39 ·
I've seen pros shoot flyers at the hunt tests...on multiple occasions.
 
#40 ·
Hunt tests started in the early 80's without pros. They grew without pros. At some point people wanted success with their dogs that couldn't achieve on their own, and a market for pros was born. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, it's just a thing. If people had the time, skill and desire to do it themselves they would and save the money, but it's a hard thing to do and I well understand that. Pros aren't going away and there is no reason they should.

But that said, to state that tests wouldn't happen without the pros money is just plain wrong. Without the pros money the clubs would have to rework their budgets, but many clubs across the country are doing just fine with minimal pro involvement - good planning and management will make up for a lot of ill-advised spending.

I've always felt that there is a social contract between clubs, that sometimes my club puts on a test and i work my butt off, but then next week i go to someone else's test and they work their butt off for me. I'll pitch in if I have to, but for the most part I expect the people that I threw birds for last week to throw them for me this week. Where I have a problem, which I think is the heart of this discussion, is the large number of people that never get involved with a club and are always expecting someone else to throw birds for their dogs because they write a check to the pro and that's their involvement. As many have said, the pros themselves are giving back - it's absentee owners who aren't giving back to the sport in general.
 
#43 ·
A lot of the small clubs around here dont do a raffle! After a full day of putting together a HT a raffle is hard to deal with as well Just as hard to get out and get stuff for the raffle Our club covers 1/4 of the state!! Test is normally 100 miles away from the largest city!! So you walk into a business in that city say hey would you donate to a raffle thats 2 hours away... Umm sorry dont think so!
 
#49 ·
I don't run a lot of hunt test anymore, but when I did, dinner's and raffles seemed more a NAHRA thing than AKC. I honestly can not remember ever seeing a raffle at an AKC hunt test, I don't know about HRC. I do know from having worked many field trials dawn to dusk, that I personally would be way too tired at the end of the day to even attend a raffle, much less work it, I can barely keep awake to eat a cold sandwich before nodding off.

John
 
#50 ·
Most of the responding missed the point of my earlier reply. I don't have a problem with pros running tests or feel non members should be working at my test. My point was that as more people go the route of using pros to train AND run their dogs, there will be much fewer people getting involved with clubs and club activities. Eventually the die hard members will no longer be able to take on all the work and the clubs will either not have tests or will be putting on very poorly run events.

Dawn
 
#58 ·
You hit the nail on the head.

I think what is needed is to require the owner of a dog to be a Member of a club that actually hosts field events. If you want to sign up your dog, enter the name of the club you belong to along with it and print it in the catalog. This is how you deal with the absentee owner problem. This will benefit ALL clubs as it will increase participation in their organizations.
 
#63 ·
First of all, why are absentee owners considered a problem? This might be a geographic thing, but in all the hunt test I have run, I never sensed any resentment from those putting on a trial or hunt test toward those of us who were just there running it and not working that day. Regarding the absentee owners, I'm sure people have all kinds of reasons for having a Pro run there dogs at distant trials, but for me it was work. If you're not retired, and hopefully hunt test are still a young man's game, chances are there are only so many trials you can get away to. In that situation, having putting your dog with a pro to run a certain circuit is a godsend.

A general question just for my education, as this may be a regional thing; in the hunt test you run, either as a host club or running your dog in another area, how many perceive there is an expectation for the average guy just there running his dog to help run the hunt test? I have been to many-many hunt test and field trials over the past twenty years and I never picked up on that even being an issue. Now once you have been in the game for a while, and if you are a "doer" kind of person, you automatically recognize they might need a hand at re-bird time, or you might offer to help pick the stations up after a series, but for every one of us who chips in, there are dozens who don't even notice. It never even occurred to me to be resentful toward those that don't help, they paid their entry fee and aren't really needed.

There have been a couple post here that I agree with; first the guy who pointed out what it means to willingly volunteer without expectation for receiving credit and no resentment toward others, and way back on page three Lonnie Spann pointed out that if a club was going host a hunt test or field trial, they better have all their ducks in a row, gunners, flyers, equipment, marshals, everything. We all know it takes a lot of planning and effort to put on a good event, but that's our job, not the people who pay their entry fee and show up to run their dog.

John
 
#67 ·
I have been to many-many hunt test and field trials over the past twenty years and I never picked up on that even being an issue. Now once you have been in the game for a while, and if you are a "doer" kind of person, you automatically recognize they might need a hand at re-bird time, or you might offer to help pick the stations up after a series, but for every one of us who chips in, there are dozens who don't even notice. It never even occurred to me to be resentful toward those that don't help, they paid their entry fee and aren't really needed.
This pretty much describes how it is around here and how I personally feel about it.
 
#51 ·
ok you bunch of cry babies:

1. if i am waiting on a pro to come and run from another stake, what am i doing? sittin' outside in a lawn chair.......i like sittin' outside in lawn chairs!

2. i was an "absentee owner" at a field trial last weekend, my pro was running my dog and i was nowhere to be found. cuz i was helping hold a "club training day" where we did drills, ht marks, ft marks, and i brought a huge freakin' nasty a__ crate of flyers i caught the day before in the rain! so you smarty pants, jaw jackers don't always know what the absentee owner is doing the days they are absent! we signed up 4 new club members and served lunch and had over 25 handlers and 40 dogs......two pros attended and the event was held on a part time pro's property!

3. our club held a profitable hunt test two months ago with pros and ams running. we had a great raffle with lots of stuff donated by members. we had a great tailgate at a nice facility. plan and do the work, it aint that hard.

4. our club has members who make the time i spend "contributing to the future" of the sport look like peanuts. they give and give and give incredible amounts of time and resources. there have always been givers and takers and there always will be. training dogs and putting on tests is dirty business and some who participate do not have it in their nature to get dirty.....no matter what! big deal, it doesn't make them a bad person! you just take their money and they smell nice.

5. i like having pros around hunt tests. the new folks never met them and don't know them. they are impressed to spend time with a guy they only read about on rtf or saw on tv. they like it and it keeps them coming back! i am not planning on the grand or the mn so i can't speak to the impact of pros there.

6. for all of us who serve, and throw, and go into the flight pen, and bag and haul, blah, blah, blah.............and "give back"* to the sport, we earn the right to bit## and moan cuz no one else helps. so let's go ahead and complain and cry because we earned the right, esp if you been at it 30 years! but we did what we did because we like what we doin. besides, i think it says in the bible somewhere, "them that don't throw will reap what they sow."

*can one "give back" to something they have taken nothing but a little fun away from? sure they can!
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top