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Positive only?

14K views 72 replies 16 participants last post by  DarrinGreene 
#1 ·
+r only trainer faced with a dog self rewarding by playing keep away steps on leash or long line, making it progressively shorter to prevent pup from running away.

Is this really +r only?

I think if you tied me to a post by my neck and let me struggle against a flat collar I would view it as +p?

Thoughts?
 
#2 ·
A self rewarding behavior is difficult to deal with by using +r, especially if there is no higher value reward that the trainer can offer. A bitch in heat might be a higher value reward but who keeps one on hand for this training? I think that it is more important to get the desirable behavior quickly which means judicious use of aversives. Use the long line and pinch collar.
 
#3 · (Edited)
I think if you tied me to a post by my neck and let me struggle against a flat collar I would view it as +p?
How do we know what you get up to in private? There are folks who get their kicks that way ...... or so I have been told.:cool:

I try to avoid the semantics of the OC quadrant; whatever I might think is going on, it's up to the dog to determine the reality and the final judgement should (IMO) be based on outcomes. So in the case of stepping on the lead, who cares what quadrant we are in providing it gives the result we intended? Which, IMO it might well, or not.:wink:

Eug
 
#9 ·
These are the people who go into the lumber store and buy a single 2 x 4 a couple of times a year is what your saying, dog gets whalloped behind closed doors and no one knows the better. That seems pretty positive to me,:rolleyes: the dog isnt getting publicly humiliated this way.

I personally dont think you can be 100% positive with dog training. There is no way to get the dog to do what you want everytime the first time without the use of some negative. I think more along the lines of varying degrees of positive and negative pressure. In training a little negative pressure is used to get a large positive response from the dog. Mostly positive training can be done, but completly positive you would never end up with more than a trained house dog.
 
#10 ·
I would say it's not +r and I don't think any knowledgeable trainer would approach the problem that way. Especially a 95% positive trainer. A good pos trainer would start from scratch and teach the behavior from square one, if there was a problem with dog playing keep away.

Is the dog playing keep away with a retrieve object or with a reward object, in this scenario?
 
#11 ·
A good pos trainer would start from scratch and teach the behavior from square one, if there was a problem with dog playing keep away.
Yup!
I have a cocker in for training at the moment, we call 'Forest Gump'!..He is a 'Bog off' out a here!..I put a 'Brace lead' on him with a 'FAT LAB' , in for boarding!..and let them 'GO'.
Win/Win I would say , and all positive without me doin a thing!;)
 
#33 ·
Yes, BUT. Are they training the dog to go open a fridge door and using a ball retrieve as a reward.

Or

Are they training a dog to do a blind retrieve of a duck and the dog is playing keep away with the duck?

Two different scenarios.

Let's all admit, you never know WHAT Darrin is training a dog to do...:cool:
 
#34 ·
Yes, BUT. Are they training the dog to go open a fridge door and using a ball retrieve as a reward.

Or

Are they training a dog to do a blind retrieve of a duck and the dog is playing keep away with the duck?

Two different scenarios.

Let's all admit, you never know WHAT Darrin is training a dog to do...:cool:

A scenario I have seen more than once. Riddle me this Jen.
Miss Molly Minivan comes to a hunt test. He totally in tune with her Golden Retriever Muffy runs out and gets its first live flier. Molly does not have a group to train with and does not belong to a club. She uses no birds in training. Muffy is for some reason birdy as heck and when it gets to that bird, it is like Ray Lewis in a deer antler shop! Muffy grabs that fresh duck and instead of running straight back to Molly runs to the live gunners and circles them a couple times. Then runs to the gallery and shows the duck to all. Then circles the judges a few times in a full and proper victory lap. And then instead of handing Molly the bird runs to the parking area and sits by the door of the minivan ready to go home.
Handle this how, will you?
BTW I been typing about Miss Molly Minivan for about 98 years here on the RTF (we count in dog years here) so this hypothetical scenario in no way reflects you or your training activities or choice of motor vehicles pr retriever breeds. Just a funny happenstance, it is.
Yet the question is valid and not rhetorical.
How would you counsel Molly?
 
#18 · (Edited)
OK so why do I ask this question.

I have embarked on an interesting mission of late, with a bunch of +r only folks, and on film, so I can't exactly cheat.

They are trying to train a group of dogs that really have haphazard foundation work at best, most of which aren't really ready for this particular work...

So we have a few dogs that want to play keep away instead of returning the ball so we can have another repetition of the exercise.

I suggested defaulting to food for those to avoid the problem, but my all knowing colleagues (who are in charge of the program) see it differently.

So I call one in and ask how they would deal with it. The first one plays "two toy" with the dog the entire session and gets exactly 2 repetitions of the desired behavior we're trying to create. Dog made exactly 0 progress on the target behavior.

Second trainer, also +r only, stands on the leash and keeps shortening it until the self rewarding behavior is impossible, dog drops the ball and we move on to the real behavior we're training. We got a bunch of reps from that dog but not exactly in an efficient manner.

I keep the lead in my hand and make sure the dog can't go anywhere. I got the most progress out of my dog but within the limitations of the training tool, namely a 6 ft leash. That's not going to be practical forever though because this is a 50 yd exercise.

Having seen all these different styles and considering we're trying to teach dogs to handle, I thought it might be an interesting discussion for this group.

My assessment at the end of that day was that the true +r trainer thinks they have as long as it takes for any dog to learn and progress. This might well work for an amateur with nothing but one dog and unlimited time to succeed, but for those of us who deal with multiple dogs that need to be trained on a given time frame, it's not a very practical approach.

That was very evident from the three of us training. First trainer (true +r only) teaches a few puppy classes. Second trainer teaches puppy classes but also does some problem solving and has some corrective training in her background.

Every dog I train has a time frame, within which i have to achieve a certain level of training.

The approaches are clearly aligned to the circumstances in which we all train.
 
#19 ·
#20 ·
Yikes, Darrin! I'd say if this is your exposure to mainly pos trainers, you have some poor examples. If the toy reward is causing an obstacle in the training, then they shouldn't use the toy as the reward! And stepping on the leash to catch the dog, just so they can use a toy as a reward also seems counter productive.

Sounds like you are in a difficult position! As you have intimated, the key to success is the foundation training and choosing the proper reward - so that it at the very least, doesn't interfere with the training!

GOOD LUCK!
 
#24 ·
It's not the trainers per se Jen, but rather the nature of the program. It's all one big experiment and there are a lot of hands on these dogs. I'm volunteering so not my place to write the protocols, nor am I really qualified.

That's why I was putting some stuff out there to hear what some of the more +r oriented ppl here had to say.
 
#21 ·
I'm sure they are undoing any progress that they make with you.

Examples: Call the dog and then leash him up.
Call the dog to take something from him (typically dirty underwear)
Call the dog and then shout at him.
Call the dog and crate him.
Call the dog and cut his nails.
 
#23 ·
I do not know for sure, but this sounds a lot like puppy training. 12 to 24 weeks. First I would teach the puppy there name. once doing this, I then would call them and clap my hands. If they do not come right away I turn around and run, This triggers their drive to chase, I stop fast and catch them and praise. When they are coming on their name, I give them the object that I am going to use for puppy fetch ( I do not like to use small balls for my larger dog because they tend to roll and chew them. Which might cerate a problem latter) I do not take it from them, I let them kinda sorta present it, in their own way. We have already played the case game so if they run, I will be the case e not the chaser.
 
#29 ·
Darren after re reading the thread I am on board with you. If you are using an object reward and it is doing more harm than good in relation to time restraints to train the dog then you should go to a food reward instead. Is there any reason these folks are not wanting to move to a food reward?
 
#31 ·
Yes Jon, ultimately it will be a toy reward for the dog based on the work they are being prepared for. I'm just not sure they understand time frames, OR there really isn't one. I can't really ask those questions. I just do what they ask of me, in this case teach these guys to handle at short range.

We'll get it done, over time. We may even have a new industry standard protocol when we're done.

It's FUN!
 
#37 ·
To stop going to tests and to go back to the training yard. First work on fetch from the ground using a duck. Hold the duck and delivery to hand. Then work on short hand thrown duck retrieves, then work on gunner thrown ducks in the field - a lot! Molly has to have at least one friend or family member or paid neighbor kid to help be a live gunner!
 
#44 · (Edited)
For the dog playing keep away with dummy, there are two solutions. Either will generally work:

1. Take the dummy out of the equation and give the dog a number of reinforcements for coming to you. Take him for a hike and periodically call him to you and give him a treat. Make sure it is a high value treat to the dog. Obviously the reward will not be a dummy. You can also increase the treat value further by making sure the dog is hungry. After 30 or 40 high value reinforcements for coming to you from various distances and various locations, add the dummy back in. You can think of the dummy as simply another distraction level.

or

2. Find a large area, far from automobiles and throw the dog a dummy. When he picks it up, simply turn and walk away from him. Keep walking until he catches up with you. Keep your mouth shut and make no noise. That activity simply tells pup where you are. It may take 40 yards or it may take 100 yds, but pup will look up and see you leaving and come find you. When he arrives, take the dummy (with no movement toward him) and tell him thank you for the nice delivery to hand. Wait a second or two and then give him a treat. I have never had to do the walk away act more than three times with a dog to have him coming proficiently with dummy in mouth. Many people tend to interpret these instructions as walk away 30 feet and then stop and call the pup. The correct process is keep walking silently until pup catches you, then while you are still walking in the same direction, reach down and take the dummy.
 
#53 ·
Thanks for the suggestions Robert (and Jim in the next post).

I don't have any problem teaching the dog to come back and give me the object. I don't even have a problem doing it with primarily +r, or even purely +r.

What I don't have is TIME to repair these dogs basics and move them through the exercise I need to teach.

I don't have any problem doing that either, despite the holes in their training.

My question was... If you're +r only... is stepping on the leash not against that theory?

I really have NO PROBLEM with my colleague here stepping on the leash. If fact, I quite like the idea. There's just a flat collar on the dog. It's pretty gentle and has been effective for us in being able to focus on what we're working on vs. continually working on remedial training of basic concepts.

I just wanted to hear what some of the +r proponents attempting to do retriever work had to say about the idea.
 
#50 ·
Thanks, Jim. Have you trained any puppies where teaching the command "here" wasn't so easy to do? And if you did, how did you resolve the problem? I would like to have many tools available for this.
 
#46 · (Edited)
Polmaise posted
The recent Five nations results must have you 'cockahoop' and feeling positive ?:grin:..
Robert, I'm somewhat underwhelmed by Rugby; however as an Anglo Irishman living in wildest Wales I have a foot in many camps and can turn my coat as the situation demands.;) The village pub is as you might expect, a hotbed of the Taffia.

If I could trade England's Grand Slam for ten points for the Villa, Wales can bury 'em at The Millenium with my blessing!

Eug
 
#47 ·
Polmaise posted Robert, I'm somewhat underwhelmed by Rugby; however as an Anglo Irishman living in wildest Wales I have a foot in many camps and can turn my coat as the situation demands.;) The village pub is as you might expect, a hotbed of the Taffia.

If I could trade England's Grand Slam for ten points for the Villa, Wales can bury 'em at The Millenium with my blessing!

Eug
Eug what the heck are you doing posting this foreign language at 10 am??
 
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