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Titled dogs from untitled parents

15K views 64 replies 35 participants last post by  Jennifer Henion 
#1 ·
2 other threads got me thinking and I know there are folks here that have the skinny so....

How many and who - FC, AFC, etc from litters where dam and sire had achieve no more that qaa, MH, HRCH status.
 
#2 ·
More than one could count....but these two off the top of my head because they belonged to friends of mine

FC AFC Misty Morning Teal- O/H George Wilson: she came from untitled parents, but her grandsire was NFC Mi Cris Sailor and NFC AFC Butte's Blue Moon on her dam side


1972 NFC AFC Royal Moose's Moe- O/H William D Connor : had NFC AFC Cork of Oakwood on his sire's side and NFC Dual Ch Shed of Arden on his dam's side
 
#6 ·
More than one could count....but these two off the top of my head because they belonged to friends of mine

FC AFC Misty Morning Teal- O/H George Wilson: she came from untitled parents, but her grandsire was NFC Mi Cris Sailor and NFC AFC Butte's Blue Moon on her dam side


1972 NFC AFC Royal Moose's Moe- O/H William D Connor : had NFC AFC Cork of Oakwood on his sire's side and NFC Dual Ch Shed of Arden on his dam's side
Moon's parents also untitled but Massie's Sassy Boots was behind dad & mom had some Guy's Bitterroot Lucky lineage behind her. She threw several pups that placed in AA stakes but did not title. Not hard to do when the majority of those folks at the time ran 5 or 6 trials a year.

& the Lean Mac story is not as posted on this thread. Sherwin had nothing to do with the dog until he was out of the Derby, but a pro Dennis Robbins, in Canada did. Ask Doug Grant for the whole story, he posts on here on occasion.
 
#3 · (Edited)
I often think of the breeding game and how many potential NFC dogs may be sitting on the front seat of some ones farm truck right now or catching an afternoon breeze on an old front porch. One Good Example I often think about is one of the most commonly known dogs in history Ebnostar lean mac. According to Hunting lab pedigree.com lean mac had 4 brothers and sisters. Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t see where any of his siblings titled in anything higher than SH. Was this due to the homes of Mac's siblings or that Mac was just a super dog? What if Mr MacLean had chosen one of mac's brothers would it have had the same potential? People have paid some serious money to carry on Mac's genetics over the years while his sibling who possibly carry the same genetic DNA get over looked because they were either not placed in a competitive home? I haven’t done much research on the topic but i would like to know if there are any AFC or FC or possible NFC that come from entirely Non-title pedigrees... Creating a Similar situation to the Baseball movie Money Ball for the retriever game. I know the when it comes to picking pups everyone looks for the stats and stats don’t lie which has proven many of successful NFC and FC. But i bet there has been some No names that carried that same NFC genetic make-up that may have come from siblings to a NFC that were overlooked due to its home placement.
 
#4 ·
A buddy of mine often says"the best dog in the world is probably laying on somebody's couch".
 
#5 ·
Sherwin Scott (RIP) bought Lean Mac from Canadian John MacLean after a successful Derby career, and was trained by Don Remien
 
#10 ·
A current dog that Tim Milligan runs and is owned by Steve Penny named FC Boo. Has qualified for his second National and will be running next month. Keep an eye on him. Nice dog. 20 AA points this year. From a hunt test breeding.
 
#16 ·
FC Matilda's Cool Girl Nicoal SH

http://www.huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=56337

I believe to be the only titled dog to be produced from two MH titled dogs. A hunting dog/pet, turned into hunt test dog, and finally campaigned and turned into a Field Champion.

One of the most talented and sweetest dogs I have ever had the pleasure to know.

:)
 
#18 ·
My now 14 year old CLF. Bought her out of the back of a pickup in a Kroger parking lot as a birthday present. No titles until 3rd generation back but it was Rascal. A MN past and 40+ master passes and countless hunting retrieves.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I really don't see the big deal or surprise with this. Probably more dogs than You can count got those titles out of untitled parents; probably most peoples first dog; that they decided to throw into a field trial; and they did well, which is why they stuck with it. Now their second dog probably came from more of a pedigree; but I'd hazard to say that this was mostly due to the fact that they were now in the FT game; and when it came time to get a 2nd dog; they knew they'd been lucky with that first dog, they knew the field and they wanted to stack the deck a bit. Talent hides; it's more consistent in dog that are actually doing the work. But all these dogs are labs; they all come from a foundation stock; you trace it fur enough back, all the pedigrees mesh, and everybody came out of field and show champion dogs; its how the breed was developed. They are labs we haven't added in anything new into the foundation stock; since before Labrador was recognized as a breed; thus all that potential is hidden in the genes; even in untitled-untested lines and could very well pop-up anywhere. Population wise there are way more untested labs-untitled "pets"; than tested FT labs. So yes; odds dictate that the Best ever FT Lab was or is probably on someones couch and will never retrieve a bird. Of course the odds of you finding that one particular dog, training and running it; are very very small. So why wouldn't one stack the odds; by buying a dog out of proven lines.
 
#25 ·
I really don't see the big deal or surprise with this. Probably more dogs than You can count got those titles out of untitled parents; probably most peoples first dog; that they decided to throw into a field trial; and they did well, which is why they stuck with it. Now their second dog probably came from more of a pedigree; but I'd hazard to say that this was mostly due to the fact that they were now in the FT game; and when it came time to get a 2nd dog; they knew they'd been lucky with that first dog, they knew the field and they wanted to stack the deck a bit. Talent hides; it's more consistent in dog that are actually doing the work. But all these dogs are labs; they all come from a foundation stock; you trace it fur enough back, all the pedigrees mesh, and everybody came out of field and show champion dogs; its how the breed was developed. They are labs we haven't added in anything new into the foundation stock; since before Labrador was recognized as a breed; thus all that potential is hidden in the genes; even in untitled-untested lines and could very well pop-up anywhere. Population wise there are way more untested labs-untitled "pets"; than tested FT labs. So yes; odds dictate that the Best ever FT Lab was or is probably on someones couch and will never retrieve a bird. Of course the odds of you finding that one particular lab, training and running it; are very very small. So why wouldn't one stack the odds; by buying a dog out of proven lines.
I have to agree with this. In the Goldens check back to a dog called Poika of Handjem that appears if you go back far enough in most of the non-BARTY pedigrees, non titled hunting dog type, yes owned by the father of Mike Lardy, Dr. Henry Lardy. Also, Ben , you have to do some work, don't believe there is much of a pedigree there but very selective breedings with good genes including the National Derby Champion he sired, hint it wasn't "Cotton" . (FC/AFC Ben and National Derby Champion Ben's Enchanted Budswiser) both own/bred by Darrel and V Frisbie. The Labs have more genetics behind them . There have been more titled FC/AFC Lab bitches too in the last 30 years so the dogs from these bitches un field trial titled have produced some nice dogs. It isn't all the males! Also, in my opinion the so-called "lesser nuggets" hunt tests titles have had a dramatic impact on the breedings. No longer do the old time field trialers openly talk about special Olympics when it comes to hunt tests! A term used not with endearment 15 or 20 years ago. My thoughts on it.
 
#24 ·
Gee; How about the FACT that Jim Pickering is one heck of a dog trainer/handler, and maybe the bloodline gave him more to work with than what was on paper and he maximized what he had to work with
 
#28 ·
I have had two wonderful dogs - litter mates - who were born of untitled parents

- FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie
- FC/AFC Sky Hy Husker

That being said, when I go searching for puppies, I do not look for untitled parents. Others may believe that the best dog around is sitting on someone's couch, but I don't

Ted
 
#32 ·
I have had two wonderful dogs - litter mates - who were born of untitled parents

- FC/AFC Freeridin Wowie Zowie
- FC/AFC Sky Hy Husker

That being said, when I go searching for puppies, I do not look for untitled parents. Others may believe that the best dog around is sitting on someone's couch, but I don't

Ted
Ted ,while I understand what you wrote ,and dont get me wrong you probably have forgotten more about FT's than I will ever know but,I feel that comments like this make you one of the people in this game that think you are above the common person. Kind of amazed you would lower your self to post on such a low end thread such as this.
 
#37 ·
I have no idea what you are saying
 
#38 ·
I agree Sharon. It's true that we know a pup from an FC-FC breeding has Rhodes Scholar parents, but it does not follow that all pups not from an FC-FC breeding are out of village idiots. The simple fact is that we have no idea about the capabilities of untrained dogs. My dog has 10 remaining siblings, and I am not aware that any of the rest of them even hunt, much less play any of the dog games. You can't convince me that at least one of them could have done fairly well (or possibly better) had they been asked to do so.

And we all know that getting a pup from the FC- FC breeding does not guarantee that the pup will be an FC either. You may have stacked the odds as much in your favor as you could, but there are still no guarantees. I don't see Michael Jordan's kids playing in the NBA.
 
#40 ·
There are so many variables. Does that well-bred pup end up in the right hands? Does it have an owner who can foot the bill to play the game at the top level? With the right trainer to bring out the best in the dog? If not, will the dog be washed out or will another trainer get a shot at it and the dog will shine? Same scenario goes for the untitled breeding.
 
#44 ·
Is it just me or does this discussion remind anyone of the comedy Trading Places? .... "Given the right surroundings and encouragement, I'll bet that that man could run our company as well as Winthorpe." Great movie wrt to the discussion of breeding or environment having the larger role in failure or success. My guess would be that FT/HT success comes to those pups raised in the correct environments, regardless of the titles, or lack thereof on the parents. That said, when I'm shopping for a new pup, I'll lean towards the pup with a titled parent or two, just to put the odds in my favor.
 
#45 · (Edited)
I also wonder if there is any trainer prejudice based on pedigree/titles? (again, playing devil's advocate)

I am vaguely recalling a situation several years ago where two pups from the same owner were sent to the trainer. One was from am impressive, heavily titled breeding, the other from a fairly nondescript breeding. The trainer got them mixed up. As time went by, the trainer wanted to wash out the pup he thought was from nondescript breeding and raved about the talent of the other pup that he thought was from the heavily titled parents.
 
#47 · (Edited)
I also wonder if there is any trainer prejudice based on pedigree/titles? (again, playing devil's advocate)
.
What about various Judges? (if your going to burn, you should sizzle;))
 
#49 ·
FC-AFC Circuit Madam and FC-AFC Circuit Preacher
McGuffy's Speed Racer X Hiwood Rock's Sassy Polly
Both sire and dam were unsuccessfully campaigned. There may have been at least one other titled offspring. Circuit Madam was a multiple time National Finalist if my memory is accurate. Had you watched either parent you would not have wanted a dog from either much less together.
 
#50 ·
Had you watched either parent you would not have wanted a dog from either much less together.
Priceless :) :) :) :) :).
 
#54 ·
This set me to thinking ... those two parents carried a "collection" of genes from lineage that probably had some good genes as well as "marginal". The stars aligned and the best of each "collection" found each other in those parents' offspring.

Another poster wondered about Lean Mac's siblings ... it is possible that one of those siblings also had a "collection" of genes to offer the gene pool that could have had a similar outcome to Dr. Ed's example.

It is completely logical for a FT enthusiast to look for proven parents for their new pup. So very much time, effort and money will be invested in such as pup.

Does logic sometimes stifle our innovative thinking? Both Gates and Jobs were not much interested in school learning, but their innovative thinking changed the world forever. Maybe we need both the logical and the "dreamers"?
 
#52 ·
Actually McGuffy's Speed Racer went 3 series in the '84 Nat Am, the year Cody won it all!
Circuit Madam was a Nat Open Finalist in '91-'95 and a Nat Am Finalist in '90. The breeding of McGuffy's Speed Racer x Hiwood Rock's Sassy Polly produced:
FC-AFC Circuit Madam - 138.5 all-age pts
FC-AFC Reibar's Wrangler - 117 all-age pts (Nat Am Finalist - '91)
Repmems Zoomer - 1 am pt
AFC Rufus R Rufus Aka Pigpen - 16 all-age pts
FC-AFC Winsom Partner (producer of at least two FC-AFCs) - 98.5 all-age pts
 
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