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What's the Point, Part 2

32K views 127 replies 44 participants last post by  Hunt'EmUp 
#1 ·
Many dogs are trained and handled to a qualifying 1st or 2nd by a pro.

Every time I think about entering a Qual I look and see the Pros entered and think why brother.


The biggest battle cry one constantly hears about FT's is "getting new/young people invloved". The 2 quotes above come from the original "What's the point" thread. In my opinion, the 2 quotes above say a lot about that "cry" for new blood.

I respect the young dog trainers who run the minor stakes, please don't get me wrong, but I just don't understand why, as an owner, you would do this. The only reason that comes to mind is that the trial is in the South for a northern owner or the North for a southern owner.

Is there pressure when you run a minor stake? As a new owner/young blood to the sport you bet there is. However, there isn't a better place in the FT game to get your feet underneath you and gain control of your emotions than the minor stakes.

Don't sit on the side lines any longer. Get out there and play the game. Have fun, have failures as well that will make those successes all the more sweeter!!
 
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#3 · (Edited)
Not that I'm keeping score, but almost every placement I have had with my dogs, whether derby, qual or all age has been with me handling. The dedicated amateur with a talented dog has some advantages over a pro such as that team bonding thing, I wouldn't automatically assume you are at any disadvantage running against pros.

John
 
#4 ·
I've seen plenty of pros place behind amateurs in the minors. Even by newbies to field trials trying out their MH in the FT game.
 
#11 ·

But, oh so sweet when you win, especially in the Open!
 
#6 ·
To the OP's question... Years ago I had a dog that won a Q as a derby dog. He was by no way, shape or form ready for all-age stakes. The following season I ran him in the Q and all-age. That year he finished all 6 Q's without ever winning one and spent most of the season going out on the land marks or land blind in the all- age. By the following year, he was placing in all-age stakes. He was 3 1/2 then. No way he would have benefitted from being pulled from the Q after that win as a derby dog.

That particular dog needed the work and confidence of going 4 series in a trial situation more than he or I needed the beating of being up with the big dogs every week at that stage of his career.
 
#7 ·
Another reason for a pro to run a dog in the "Q" is to place 1st or 2nd to be able for it to run one of the more restricted AA stakes.

QAA regards

john
 
#8 ·
I totally agree. Can't place if you don't play. While I train with a pro and have sent my dog on to the pro on short spurts, i.e. less than 4 months, only a couple of times I've done a lot on my own (with oversight). I've been able to finish 9 of 15 quals, with 2 firsts in that group. I've since been running all age and have a 1st and 2nd under my belt with a couple of jams. I was willing to run Q's to gain experience and get a feel for the type of competition I'd be facing. I'm here to tell you, nothing and I mean NOTHING feels better than to finish and place especially when the competition is tough. Is it easy?, no way, was it tough, absolutely but I love every minute of it and can't wait to get going again. Every time you go to the line it is a learning experience you can't duplicate in training.
 
#10 ·
I'm one of those Amateurs, nearly full blooded Amateur trained dog (only spent 1 winter down south) and the remainder all under my hand. He's never failed a Master test and in the past year and a half, we've placed or jammed every qualifying but one. Ran a couple Am's and didn't make it out of the first a couple times and was 1 cast away from making it to the 4th. I find it incredibly rewarding for what we've done considering the circumstances as well as this dog being my first competitive dog in trials.
 
#13 ·
So why should one enter a FT, if most likely you are gone in the first series. might as well spend the money on a hunting trip, dog gets more flyers, and doesn't get dropped.

its simple, if you want more "players" you gotta let them play ! I doesn't take away anything from the dogs that place to let the newbees play. It is better for ALL. "You can't get your feet wet, if you don't make it to the water series."
 
#18 ·
You cant let them play if they don't pick up the chickens. Most Quals I judge or have watched are very generous with call backs. That being said if a new handler has the attitude they cant play with the pros they are beat before they come to the line.

My fondest FT memory so far is beating Farmer and Rorem in an open when they each had 6 bullets in the 4th. Talk about a rush. Also they other Am's at that trial went crazy with congrats at the news. Even some that I beat out their pro handled dog.

So get out there and just do it.

ps. Are not the majority of dogs in a master stake pro handled?
 
#15 ·
The purpose of a trial is to find a winner. NOTHING more. The judges just have to find a winner. They are not even obligated to give away any other placements. There is no obligation to "let you play" dogs no longer "in contention" should be dropped.

The reason for the trial is to evalute under a standard set of test which retriever best displays the working traits and qualities we would want to see in breeding stock.

So unless you wish to prove the merits of a retriever as potential breeding stock. Can accept the fact that the purpose of the event is to find the dog most capable on that weekend on those tests, run the trial. If NOT go hunting. That's really the short and simple of it. Once upon a time there were no hunt tests, no dock jumping, no SRS, no national pheasant open, no nothing but a AKC or a CKC Field Trial.

Personally I would like to go hunting. Not because of not playing, not winning or any other reason than for the most part I'm an introvert who enjoys being alone with my dog(s) and sleeping in my own bed rather than being at a trial.

Not intended as "RIP" just different perspective.
 
#17 ·
That is my point Randy, EXACTLY. When you have nearly 60 dogs in the 2 minor stakes at a given trial and roughly 45-50 are handled by Pro's I think it speaks volumes to the battle cry of " new young people". If people aren't willing to run their own dogs when ever possible in those minor stakes what's the point? Where is the enjoyment of sitting on the sidelines watching when you could be on the field playing.
 
#21 ·
Sounds like great advice. I think the real problem is that for many it is not easy. Problems with time, distance, and money make it difficult for many.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I think the first step, is you have to realistically have the dog.

That takes Time and money commitment.

With the pup I have right now, I am devoting as much time as I possibly can with the dog. I train every day,following assignments for homework I recieve from a Pro I visit once a week.

The training ground I have during the week is Pathetic, but I can get things done. Idont have folks to throw for me on a regular basis. I have remote wingers I use instead.

Now, with all that said,, I am a realist also.. I am a Horrible handler. Idont think well underpressure, I know my limitations.

As a handler, I dont think I can step onto the field, and compeate with a Pro that has the experience of training and running dogs all the time.

I love football. I played some in High school. I am a small man with little hands, smell like cabbage!
I would be a fool to think I could be a Pro Player..


My Goal is to have a well trained dog..
Gooser
 
#28 ·
Now, with all that said,, I am a realist also.. I am a Horrible handler. Idont think well underpressure, I know my limitations.
Mike

I really get tired of hearing you say this. Frankly, I think that it is - for you (and others that I have seen over the years)

a) An attention getting device; and
b) A way to excuse poor performance

​Ted
 
#36 ·
I think the first step, is you have to realistically have the dog.

That takes Time and money commitment.

With the pup I have right now, I am devoting as much time as I possibly can with the dog. I train every day,following assignments for homework I recieve from a Pro I visit once a week.

Now, with all that said,, I am a realist also.. I am a Horrible handler. Idont think well underpressure, I know my limitations.

As a handler, I dont think I can step onto the field, and compeate with a Pro that has the experience of training and running dogs all the time.

My Goal is to have a well trained dog..
Gooser

Gooser, I've been on here long enough to have seen this from you before too.

When I joined this forum I was JUST LIKE YOU. In many ways I probably still am. But, I did take my pup to the line in the Derby, got my arse handed to me a few times by both pros and am's alike. Training buddies said they could see me shaking, told me I could start breathing again afterward, etc. Gettin' my arse handed to me a few times was the best thing that ever happened to me in FT's. It didn't make me wanna give up, it made me more determined to succeed. I worked harder, found more training partners, learned, improved my dog. Now I'm a 4x 'veteran' of the Amateur stakes...still intimidating, yes. Am I a good handler...no. Can I get better...yes, and I am determined to do so. Trust me, if I can do it, you can do it.

Seems like I saw where you wrote on here once about wanting to beat Ted. Sounds like a goal to me. What is your first step going to be?
 
#38 ·
Gooser, I've been on here long enough to have seen this from you before too.

When I joined this forum I was JUST LIKE YOU. In many ways I probably still am. But, I did take my pup to the line in the Derby, got my arse handed to me a few times by both pros and am's alike. Training buddies said they could see me shaking, told me I could start breathing again afterward, etc. Gettin' my arse handed to me a few times was the best thing that ever happened to me in FT's. It didn't make me wanna give up, it made me more determined to succeed. I worked harder, found more training partners, learned, improved my dog. Now I'm a 4x 'veteran' of the Amateur stakes...still intimidating, yes. Am I a good handler...no. Can I get better...yes, and I am determined to do so. Trust me, if I can do it, you can do it.

Seems like I saw where you wrote on here once about wanting to beat Ted. Sounds like a goal to me. What is your first step going to be?




My first step, is getting a well trained dog.. I have my hands FULL!!!!!!!!! I'm not going to look forward to next weeks game... I have to concentrate very hard, on what Homework I have been given for the week..

When I get that well trained dog,, we will see what happens..

Lainee.... Do you remember last weekend and ROBO arm....??????

I was told to work on steady,, and the hand,,, and running my first blinds... EVERYDAY... Thats alll I am thinkin about..

I cannot believe I have so much trouble learning a routine, and dropping my hand in front of the dog... But as of today,, I think I have it..

I will beat Ted someday!!,,, Lainee Too,, Maontenrarieee too or how ever Ya spell it,,, Even that other guy with the clean truck..

Gooser
 
#27 ·
Thats the way i look at it..
Its like dieting,,,, You have to set reasonable goals to be successful,, otherwise its not very gratifying to see rewards that are not what you expect, for the amount of work you put in.

I love my dogs, I love the time with them. IF,, at a training day, Cherylon tells me I have done something REALLY well,, I will know She absolutly means it..
Thats my ribbon..

When I get a chance to take this dog hunting, and I accept an invite from Mr Jobman to come hunt with him on his Big North Platte river,, and Flinch sits well and retrieves birds, runs blinds, and shows that Mr Jobman,, the puppy he sold me is in good hands,,, I will be beside myself..

Gooser
 
#24 ·
And,,, I am very thakful for the people who DO run and campain dogs, and the organization that gives them the chance.

It gives us all a very good availability of dogs to choose from when we are ready for that next project.

Gooser agin
 
#25 ·
Gooser is correct you have to have a dog that is able to play at the FT level. After that its a matter of how bad do you want it. It takes some sacrifice to be competitive for most of us at the top level of retriever games. So gdgnyc, take a hard look at your goals then get about doing them. I don't know your situation just know that it can be done. When you get that blue ribbon its the best feeling in the world at that moment.
 
#26 ·
I played the game as an amateur for a lot of years.

The expense is horrible, but the real killer if you want to be competitive as an Amateur is the time commitment for training. Not many can give up 2 hours a day without making family sacrifices.


I think Field trials should have a buy in like a country club, or an age requirement to keep young families away.


Don
 
#30 ·
I have seen Mike handle. He is by no means a great handler, but neither is he as poor as he claims. I think he needs to ditch the broken record, and put a new one on the player. It is my observation that when he sets his mind to something, he improves at it.
 
#33 ·
And I totally agree too - first time Mike joined the group I wasn't sure if he knew which end to point toward the birds ;) but now I think he just might know!

Mike listen to Ted - put on a different record....this one is getting old!
 
#31 ·
I am getting ready to step into FT's and it is intimidating for the Am that trains their own dog~100%. Thankfully I have some very good mentors and good support, that said I'm the one who has to make the committment to improve my handling, improve my training, be efficient and continue to learn. I, for one, am grateful for the minor stakes.
 
#35 ·

I don't need to bad mouth Mike, he does a good enough job of doing it himself
 
#34 ·
DL said to me many years ago - get a mirror - full length - practice in front of that mirror - what you see is what the dog sees :eek:. Go to an OB show & watch the handlers, they are probably as a group close to the best, but they don't have the kind of dog we need to run field trials. Then watch the good pro's & some amateurs. You will improve. Never make an excuse, only strive to get better :cool:. But it helps to have a good dog beside you :).
 
#44 ·
What would be nice to see is more amateurs running their dogs in the Minor stakes. Someone said earlier, I think it was Ted or Mike, you can run the Q till your heart is content or 2 wins which ever comes first but run the dog yourself. A lot of people out here would rather see Amateurs running their own dogs rather than a Pro.
 
#45 · (Edited)
I could care less what others do with their dogs, personally I prefer to run my own dog minor and major stakes, but that's just me. As far as competition I don't see much difference between Larry Calvert, Linda Harger, Judy Rasmussen or any of another bunch of good amateurs their great dogs and most of the pros I run against, they are all very, very good and are very hard to beat.
 
#47 ·
I would prefer to see more Amateurs because I think the more Ams you have involved in the sport - who are excited about the sport, the better
 
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