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British Labs / No Force????

96K views 332 replies 84 participants last post by  Aussie 
#1 ·
Below is an article I found in Gun Dog magazine. I would like everyones thoughts on British Labs and British training methods that apparently "do not use force"?

Gun Dog Article:

There’s a new movement making British Style Field Trials popular again, along with the British strain of Labrador retriever. These Labs are largely born with the behavior of delivering retrieved objects to hand, making it unnecessary to force-fetch them. They are also bred to be calm companions as well as peak performers in the field, according to Robert Milner, who breeds British Labs at Duckhill Kennel. And from what I saw of his 5-week-old puppies to 5-year-old adults, it’s absolutely true.

The big attraction to these trials and British training methods, for me, was the lack of force training. No force to pile, force to water, force anything. For dogs bred to be highly trainable and good at hunting, like my golden, this philosophy says it’s not necessary to use force. It’s very believable after watching several British-trained dogs complete 175-yard blind retrieves through walls of 5-foot tall brush and woods, guided by whistle and hand signals, then stand at heel, steady as a rock, while they watch another dog work.
 
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#258 ·
Could you please define +R and -P, I also like Scott Parker post #261 and Jennifer's post reply.
+R = positive reward = rat in the maze touches the lever and gets the cheese
-P = negative pressure = rat in the maze touches the lever and gets his nose whacked.
 
#269 ·
Now where did I put my cocktail?
Yeah, RTF has made me forget things and driven me to drink on a few occasions too.
 
#276 ·
DarrinGreene;1043277 Ellis said:
Agreed! Haven't seen all of his stuff yet, but what I have seen is very digestible and easy to follow. And it works. :)
 
#278 ·
That's cause they are English rats. She got them when she was at Oxford:)
And no fellas, that isn't the Oxford where the skimpily clad young Southern ladies hang out.
 
#282 ·
Darrin, Thanks for posting that Michael Ellis / Leerberg video again! You're right, it's perfect! What a great explanation and a dynamic speaker. The first time you posted it - in a different thread - I watched the first 3 mins and clients walked in and I forgot about it. It is long, but great. Hopefully the people who have questions about "rewards based" training will take 15 minutes to watch it.

Maybe we can kidnap him and make him create a retriever program.
 
#283 · (Edited)
Not sure why you'd want that with the amount of great retriever programs that are out there Jenn.

Besides that, as I mentioned, from what I've seen (I don't know the guy), Ellis has no problem with aversive methods of training. He seems really good at early development and setting dogs up so that pressure down the line is minimized though.

I just like the clarity of his explanations, regardless of topic.
 
#293 ·
Who does not break down criteria when training young pups?

I go through a fair bit of chicken and cheese rewarding my 5 month old.

Cannot fault her desire, focus, obedience and ability to learn. She generalises well and training is fun..as it should be.
 
#298 ·
There are some good things about the video I would apply. Timing of his yes and good response might capture dogs attention. And I assume you don't need to treat with food for his system to work.
Was not sure I like the idea of when he tells his dog down way out, then lets the dog know he is right, the reward yes and the dog runs in to get the treat? That is not a good application.
If I whistle sit my dog way out on a blind and he sits promptly and I say yes or good which is what I do b/c it signals to him you were good sitting not to come running in! So I was interested how you would stop that from occurring. I am always thinking how is that going to help me attain my goals with my dog in what ever venue I enter. It has to be applicable and doable, easy and acceptable for my dog.

IMHO some pups need a little more than treats. No offence to Ellis, he did speak about that firmness on the video. Need to see more on that subject, other problematic behaviors and more info on his methods! Very interesting video, however.
I think if you were to get efficient at that technique you would be surprised how well it works. He may start off there teaching down ( I don't know if he does or doesn't) at a distance but it doesn't end there,
I do the same with P+ and -R I don't make them wait at first but after a few sessions they are doing the long down stay at a distance. remember dogs are contexual,, what you looking for is the slam down not the down stay. Slamming into a down 5 feet away is different than doing it at 100 yards. So a show me what you want phase is helpful.
I find it is a great application to start with. And I have never watched the video. I did watch his philosophy video though.
 
#305 ·
"Advanced Levels" depends upon your perspective of retriever training. As I have no interest in field trials, "advanced levels" to me means higher proficiency at gundog behaviors, and the gundog behaviors are very different from field trial behaviors. USAR dogs and IED detection dogs also employ different behavior sets. Advanced levels also means to me higher proficiency at Urban Search and Rescue behaviors for those functional dogs, or higher proficiency at IED detection behaviors for those functional dogs. Well trained retrievers excel at all the above functions in addition to field trials.
 
#306 ·
To quote Danny Farmer - "A trained dog is a trained dog." I train "meat dogs" the same way I train dogs that will go on to HT/FT's. A bird in the freezer means more to me that another orange ribbon sitting a box full of orange ribbons...

/Paul
 
#319 ·
Yellow Machine,

The British field Labs I've seen tend to have much better rear angulation than do most AKC field Labs. Could be a particular strain of British Lab in your area that your Vet is seeing that lack rear angulation, however that is not my experience.

Swack
 
#320 ·
UK labradors would not win in US field trials?

US labradors would not win in UK field trial?

How many generations does it take to breed for type/a breed? Six generations, is that right, before they can apply to the Kennel Club?

So UK and US labradors could/would/should be different. Simple really.
 
#321 ·
British Labs/No force
After more than 30 pages on this thread it would appear that like most things when you get a topic that is either based on supposition or another’s opinion you will get controversy ,such is a forum.
I took an early interest in this thread for obvious reasons , being as I from Scotland. At the time of my insertion to the thread it was clear that the perception from many that ‘No-force’ related to either clicker’ or positive only training, and that a ‘few’ in the same camp swamped us with testimonials and accolades.
I therefore ‘tried’ to introduce a bit of ‘British humour’ with pictures and light hearted response.
Which,In my opinion resulted in the same response you get from UK Gundog forums ?..We ain’t all that different after all!
I come on this forum to learn from what you guy’s are doing with your dogs. It has already been mentioned that there are two sets of rules which guide us apart, yet we achieve the same goals, whether they are in competition trials and tests, or just hunting/shooting!
You guy’s are actually pretty lucky! We aren’t allowed to use e-collar, or FF, or caged birds or many of the other tools available to you!? , we have to work with what we’ve got ! under the law and rules before us, for that we rely heavily on the decades of selective breeding for the traits that are best shown for the purpose we strive for, the most important being that of game finding! and line manners , No matter what theatre of gundog work you enter.
Let me give a few facts about how we train and the type of trainer in the UK, that I can truly state regarding the original post of Brit Labs/No force.
99% Of all UK Professional handler/trainers do not use ‘clicker’ training
There has never been a FTCH in the UK that has been trained with ‘positive only’ training.
There has also never been a FTCH in the UK that has been collar conditioned and FF used as a programme for retrieving.
So that said?, if the UK /Brit Labs don’t use e-collar or FF ,and also don’t use positive only or clicker?
Then how the heck , do we get these dogs to do what they do.
My post/reply is not to promote or advocate what we do ,or condemn what others on your side of the pond do!..Merely to point out the differences that we all work with, and why the same differences in each camp ,whether positive only or CC, or using a Ken Dodd Tickly stick? (Many of you won’t know what that is, but you can Google it)
I know it’s a long post, for many to read!..I make no apologies, it was necessary to explain what I have read and interpreted on the forum from ‘all you guy’s’!
Therefore, if you are not interested in some of the things we do in our shooting field without the use of everything You guy’s have at your disposal then you not need see the following home made clips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQfo5ZdSCcE
This is not a test or a trial,but it could be?,because they are asked on a daily shoot to perform the same. And more often with other dogs at their side.
Over here, on a Shoot day, whether walking up in a line, or driven game there primary function is to retrieve wounded game ‘first’!..to the exclusion of all else.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VanUIPniNhc
Now there were more than 50 birds shot in that sequence ,with more than 100 shots fired!
Multiple marking?>
In our game the dog must remain steady with no collar and no noise, and honour others around it, with the same determination as one who wants to retrieve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WMaztF2gaU
The dog must also be soft of mouth! and take direction on Blinds , with control and direction in the field full of scent and distraction.
This last clip was more ‘proving a point for many on this side of the pond,on my part ‘, but you get the idea?..so sorry for the comments!
In all cases the dogs are non slip!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPvUQVgzTSE
Let me confirm, that none of these clips are intended as a promotion to field trailing in the UK! More to show what the dogs in the UK have to do! Whether they trial or not.
I do hope ,that the next posts on here regarding British Labs, and the next post I see in the UK regarding US retrieving is perhaps seen in a different light?
I wish you all a very Happy new year.
 
#322 ·
polmaise,

It's good to see some authentic looks at the jobs UK Labs are asked to do in the field. You make a good point about the differences in points of view between those who hunt vs. those who trial. Often there are differing training goals depending on the venue and even a preference for differences in the dogs, depending on an individual's preference or requirements.

Whether we are discussing hunting needs vs. FT needs or comparing US dogs to UK dogs I think we can often get bogged down in the differences instead of finding common ground. Regardless of the venue or the continent there is no one style of retriever that will fit everyone's needs. Rather than getting into the "My ______ (insert: Style of Lab, Way of Training, etc.) is better than yours!", which is often where these discussions end up, we should acknowledge the differences and try to understand and appreciate why there are differences.

There is no doubt that forums are imperfect places to exchange ideas with so many differences of opinions (including those whose opinions are based on misinformation and biases). However, in spite of the shortcomings it is the best place I can think of to exchange ideas and information. Your videoes from Scotland may be the closest I get to seeing how you folks across the pond do things and I appreciate you sharing them with us. I hope you continue to contribute your views and experiences from Scotland to help broaden the knowledge-base on RTF.

Cheers and Happy New Year to you as well!

Swack
 
#323 ·
It should be a 'New Year' resolution Jeff.
Thanks for the comments mate!
.....................
I wish I had better clips than Paul French ,but I don't..and I wish I had better dogs than is seen on them.
I do know this however!.....We all appear to have the best! No matter how we achieve it!...
.......
Happy new year to you and yours also, as Here at this time is just about 'Party Time'!..and I may be missing for a few days!
 
#328 ·
Happy new year to you and yours also, as Here at this time is just about 'Party Time'!..and I may be missing for a few days!
Or at least til Bobby Burns Night - which reminds me, do Scottish Labs deliver haggis? I didn't say deliver to hand, just deliver, being aware that you sent a dog across a few weeks ago and wanting to know if you can pass off a couple of haggi as dummies getting them through customs to accompany the next dog you ship over. And you rotter - Ken Dodd! Who will you cite next for "British training," Frankie Howerd?

MG
 
#332 ·
For the life of me I still can't find any mention of British labrdaors on AKC's web page. They only list Labrador Retrievers??????????

I have watched a training video where the person says he does not FF. Then later in the program he has the dog on the table.

IMHO any time you require a dog to do something that although he may be willing to do he does want to that is force. Force doesn't mean you have to be inflicting discomfort on the dog.
 
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