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URGENT: AVMA to vote 'AGAINST' using Homeopathic Therapy in treating pets, JAN. 5

14K views 58 replies 17 participants last post by  TBell 
#1 ·
Just read about this new resolution by the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) to discourage Homeopathic treatment in pets. The resolution will be put up for a vote on Saturday, Jan. 5, TOMORROW.

The AVMA has already passed a resolution on Aug. 3, 2012, to discourage the use of Raw Diets, or the Ancestral Diet (what dogs and cats ate in the wild).

AVMA RESOLUTION: Homeopathy Has Been Identified as an Ineffective Practice and Its Use Is Discouraged

RESOLVED, that the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) affirms that—

1. Safety and efficacy of veterinary therapies should be determined by scientific investigation.
2. When sound and widely accepted scientific evidence demonstrates a given practice as ineffective or that it poses risks greater than its possible benefits, such ineffective or unsafe philosophies and therapies should be discarded.
3. In keeping with AVMA policy on Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine, AVMA discourages the use of therapies identified as unsafe or ineffective, and encourages the use of the therapies based upon sound, accepted principles of science and veterinary medicine.
4. Homeopathy has been conclusively demonstrated to be ineffective.

You can read the full resolution here on the AVMA website.
CLICK HERE

The American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association has prepared a response of their own. The AHVMA response covers 3 points:

1. The AVMA has models, but actual recommendations about veterinary practice are the responsibility of veterinary state boards. There are a number of states that include homeopathy in their state laws about the practice of veterinary medicine.
2. There are a number of misstatements in the white paper, and we are listing them for delegates.
3. AHVMA believes that when anyone considers a modality, they should talk to people who are considered experts in the field. Before voting, there a task force should be formed which includes experts in the field of homeopathy, to look at further evidence and make recommendations to the HOD. That way delegates to the House can make an informed decision.

You can read the full reply by CLICKING HERE.

I'm sure many of you have successfully used Raw Diets and Homeopathic treatment in treating many senior pets holistically. Many have used it to treat other diseases by boosting the immune system in pets naturally.

Contact info for the AVMA is below. Remember that the vote is tomorrow (Saturday, January 5), so if you want to weigh in, you should do it via email, phone or fax right away:

Email address: info@avma.org
Phone number: 800-248-2862
Fax number: 847-925-1329

 
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#2 ·
Why urgent? How does it affect you or anyone else? Not like it is a law saying you can't feed raw, processed, or cat crap for that matter.
Unwad your panties and go grind some chicken :roll:
 
#4 ·
No seriously what's the big deal?
 
#6 ·
Thanks for sharing
 
#7 ·
I will ask again. Why should anyone care? That is. Real question
 
#8 ·
Ok, I'll bite:
1. Because it would interfer with a vet's practice of medicine and their decision making.
2. Because it potentially will take a tool out of a vet's arsenal treatments.
3. Because this vote will give pet insurance carriers the grounds to deny even more claims.
4. Because this vote will create a "slippery slope" that will lead to more oversight. What will be next? Ruling out chiro and acupunture?

I have used holistic medicine successfully, when more traditional treatments were not effective. There is nothing wrong with the suggestions of the AHVMA.

Thanks for the info Tammy! I just sent the email.
 
#10 ·
badbullgator,

I can't speak for Tammy but I think the AVMA's decision could potentially have far-reaching consequences. If this vote passes it may carry weight with some state veterinary boards. Those boards may restrict the licensing of homeopathic vets and/or retrict certain pratices. That would limit dog owner's choices as to what treatment options they could choose to use for their animals. Therefore, this vote has the potential to limit our freedoms as dog owning individuals.

Taken to an extreme (as many things are tending to these days) an activist bureaucrat might decide that if you feed your dog an ancestral diet (for example) you are not providing your dog with appropriate care according to AVMA guidlines. This could be interpreted as a form of animal abuse and you could have your dog taken away from you for his own safety. While this may sound extreme, ask yourself how many things have happened in the past few years that you would have thought impossible five years ago? (One example, the Fed's fire the CEO of GM and put their own guy in his place!?!)

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that "the issue" is the issue on the table. Look beyond the stated issue to see what the real issue may be. For example, why would they object to feeding a dog an "Ancestral Diet"? It would be a great diet for a canine wouldn't it? Yeah it would, except for the fact that animals must die for you to feed your dog in that manner. Don't doubt that there are a slew of animal rights types in the AVMA.

I have come to the conclusion that organizations like the AVMA aren't just about promoting the best health care for your animal. They are about protecting their turf. If there is competition for a piece of their action they will do their best to squash it before they lose their power and control. That doesn't promote good vet care. It doesn't protect our freedom. It helps line their pockets!

We need to look beyond the short-sighted thinking of "That doesn't affect me" and see the big picture. Any organization that would make the over-reaching statement that "Homeopathy has been conclusively demonstrated to be ineffective" isn't interested in finding the truth. In fact, they may be trying to supress it.

Swack
 
#32 ·
Don't fall into the trap of thinking that "the issue" is the issue on the table. Look beyond the stated issue to see what the real issue may be.
This is so true.
In the instance of the AVMA coming out against raw diet, the real story behind the matter was that a person on the executive board of the organization that requested that the AVMA institute a formal policy regarding raw diet just so happened to be a Marketing Director at Purina. hmmm.
http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/the-domino-effect.html
 
#11 ·
The only people who really care is the pet industry because, just like the FDA, it effects their bottom line... profit.

The FDA is made up of people that are doctors, pharmacists, food industry people and such and is very political. They have a war going on with the natural food/supplement/vitamin industry because those industries affect their profit. They don't want people taking those supplements and becoming healthy because then they don't buy their drugs or go to the doctor as often. Why do you think that the statement on the vitamins and natural food supplements says, "This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease." The FDA requires that statement on all natural supplements and vitamins because it cuts into the profits of drug companies, doctors and food industry companies. According to the FDA, nothing can cure or treat any disease unless it is a drug, i.e.- their drugs.

I believe that you have to look past the initial subject here and try to see the reasons for this "urgency". Obviously, it is having an impact on the profit margin. If they allowed this to go on it would effect profits in all sorts of pet related industries such as the dog food industry and veterinary industry. JMHO.

Sorry, all you veterinarians out there. I don't mean to step on anyone's toes in particular, but this is just my opinion. Flame away!

BHB
 
#17 ·
while I agree the FDA is political you are way wrong that it is about protecting profit. Everyone would make far more money without the FDA. Drug companies and doctors are not concerned about supplements because if they were worth while Merck and others have more than enough money to take over any supplement company out there.
Nobody likes the FDA except the FDA. The intent is good but their practice leaves much to be desired.

BTW- I have more than a bit of knowledge about that topic.
 
#12 ·
Thanks, Susan and Jeff!

It's kind of like gun control.....well who cares if they outlaw AR15's. I don't use them anyway.

It does in fact sway the state veterinary boards when a resolution passes. It must give weight to their decisions.

Not only will it affect veterinary boards, but our veterinary colleges who research diseases which affect our dogs. Now, with this resolution that declares homeopathy ineffective, our veterinary colleges cannot even consider raw diet or homeopathy as a treatment for diseases.

For the typical veterinary practice it can determine whether your vet can recommend alcohol and vinegar for swimmer's ear or must they now recommend a prescription drug?

Email sent also with all of your points added!
 
#14 ·
Nonsense. Changes nothing.

Sky falling regards
 
#15 ·
Exactly. Why would a profession founded in science reccomend something that is totally disproven and potentially harmful.
Susan do you reccomend someone hire a convicted felon in prison for selling drugs act as an attorney for someone facing drug charges?
 
#21 ·
bbgator,

I have known many people who swear by the theory "like cures like" after a night of excess. I think they referred to it as "Hair of the Dog"!

However, I will admit that I didn't understand what "Homeopathy" was when I wrote my first post on this thread. Thanks to you and mitty I have done a little research and am now better informed.

However, the light of this new knowledge doesn't change the message of my post. I do think much of the "conventional wisdom" we are fed by the media on behalf of special interest groups including Big Pharma and Big Agri and others too numerous to name can be mis-leading and/or incorrect. We need to be vigilant and protect our rights to make our own informed decisions.

Thanks for helping to inform us!

Swack
That works for alcohol withdrawal symptoms.
 
#20 ·
Clinical management of babesiosis in dogs with homeopathic Crotalus horridus 200C.

Chaudhuri S, Varshney JP.
Source

Clinical Diagnosis laboratory, Referral Veterinary Polyclinic, Indian Veterinary Research Institute, Izatnagar 243122 UP, India. drshubhamitra@gmail.com

Abstract

Homeopathic Crotalus horridus 200C was evaluated in 13 clinical cases of babesiosis in dogs, compared with another 20 clinical cases treated with diminazine. Babesiosis is an important tropical tick-borne haemoprotozoan disease in dogs clinically manifested by anorexia, dehydration, temperature, dullness/depression, diarrhoea/constipation, pale mucosa, hepatomegaly, vomiting/nausea, splenomegaly, distended abdomen/ascites, yellow coloured urine, emaciation/weight loss, and occular discharge. The diagnosis of babesiosis was based on cytological evidence of Babesia gibsoni in freshly prepared blood smears. The dogs were treated with oral C. horridus 200C, 4 pills four times daily for 14 days (n=13) or diminazine aceturate 5 mg/kg single intramuscularly dose (n=20). All the dogs were administered 5% Dextrose normal saline at 60 ml/kg intravenously for 4 days. Initial clinical scores were similar in both groups and showed similar progressive improvement with the two treatments over 14 days. Parasitaemia also improved in both groups, but haematological values showed no change. No untoward reactions were observed. It appears that C. horridus is as effective in causing clinical recovery in moderate cases of canine babesiosis caused by Babesia gibsoni as the standard drug diminazine. Large scale randomized trials are indicated for more conclusive results.

As the AHVMA states in its response to the AVMA, "The Case against Homeopathy contains many unsubstantiated allegations..........then as practitioners of conventional medication, we would find ourselves working with a significantly limited selection of therapeutic options."
 
#22 ·
a substance that causes the symptoms of a disease in healthy people will cure similar symptoms in sick people. Scientific research has found homeopathic remedies ineffective and their postulated mechanisms of action implausible. Within the medical community homeopathy is considered to be quackery.
They think the same way about chiropractors.
years ago all of the doctors pain killers and recommendations and warnings about having quacks work on my back,,,,, couldn't get me on my feet after 2 weeks in bed. Someone told me about chiropractors I gave them a try. I was hauled in to see one in a wheel barrow,(figurative) A half hour later I was out the door and back to work and doing cart wheels. The medical community doesn't know as much as they should. I don't trust a whole lot of what they or the government have to say about much.

Pete
 
#26 ·
They think the same way about chiropractors.
years ago all of the doctors pain killers and recommendations and warnings about having quacks work on my back,,,,, couldn't get me on my feet after 2 weeks in bed. Someone told me about chiropractors I gave them a try. I was hauled in to see one in a wheel barrow,(figurative) A half hour later I was out the door and back to work and doing cart wheels. The medical community doesn't know as much as they should. I don't trust a whole lot of what they or the government have to say about much.

Pete




I was told to live with my back pain. Dr told me spinal manipulation (chiropractor) might help. After 4 sessions had to quit due to more pain in other places that didnt hurt when I started.
 
#30 ·
#33 ·
Does anyone have the references to the studies allegedly showing that raw is harmful? I'd like to read some of them.

It is hard for me to imagine that there is much risk to raw when our dogs love nothing better than rotten road kill.

I'm sure there is SOME risk to eating raw, but the question to me is whether raw is worse than the alternatives.
 
#34 ·
I see it as the AVMA doing their job. Vets are should be practicing what is based in science and if you as the owner want to try something different then that is your right. But veterinary practice is an industry based in science and much of the homeopathic treatments just do not pass the test. I guess what I'm saying is... Should homeopathic/alternative treatments be prohibited - no. But neither should the right to prohibit unproven, unscientific and possibly ineffective or even dangerous treatments in an industry like vet medicine (among its members). My wife is a vet and a phd student and trust me, there is no grand scheme to only do studies and publish what the big pharmaceuticals want. If it works on a consistent and proven basis, it would not be considered homeopathic, it would be considered science.
 
#36 ·
I see it as the AVMA doing their job. Vets are should be practicing what is based in science and if you as the owner want to try something different then that is your right. But veterinary practice is an industry based in science and much of the homeopathic treatments just do not pass the test. I guess what I'm saying is... Should homeopathic/alternative treatments be prohibited - no. But neither should the right to prohibit unproven, unscientific and possibly ineffective or even dangerous treatments in an industry like vet medicine (among its members). My wife is a vet and a phd student and trust me, there is no grand scheme to only do studies and publish what the big pharmaceuticals want. If it works on a consistent and proven basis, it would not be considered homeopathic, it would be considered science.
From what I understand, the veterinary colleges don't fund their own research anymore. Big pharmaceuticals, pet food companies, etc. are funding the majority of the research at our veterinary colleges these days.

I didn't completely understand the difference between Homeopathic and Holistic but certainly do now. Even though it is one small area, it is in the same lines as the 'raw pet' food diet decision. One less tool in which to treat our dogs.

I'm sure the 'raw food' issue can be a whole long thread in itself, but anytime you are preparing food there is a chance of contamination. Just look at the chicken jerky treats from China, now why doesn't the AVMA go the next step and declare dog treats harmful to your dog's well being.

Yes, it is very political and the well being of our dogs is not the #1 issue anymore. Awareness of these issues by the pet owner is critical when you have a sick dog, especially when it is a competitive dog.
 
#35 ·
For what it's worth, I feel that the reason so many veterinary organizations or individual veterinarians are against things like homeopathy or raw diets is because the majority of what is seen in practice are animals with problems (for the most part, you see these patients far more often than a healthy patient just there for annual exam/bloodwork/vaccines/etc). If those problem cases are on homeopathy or raw diets, it is automatically assumed that they are ineffective or simply not being used correctly. JMH(not scientifically-proven)O.
 
#38 ·
I missed the connection between this rant and the AVMA's stance on an unproven and controversial type of medicine whose principals were adopted 200 years ago when the average lifespan was twenty years less than today, when infant mortality rates were high, and before the discovery of the germ theory of disease. Any pet owner is not prohibited from using homeopathic agents, they are not considered drugs and are readily available to anyone who wants to purchase them.

People who object to the funding of research projects should understand that without those sources there would be no research. Find a cure and make a profit, is that not the American way?
 
#39 ·
I missed the connection between this rant and the AVMA's stance on an unproven and controversial type of medicine whose principals were adopted 200 years ago when the average lifespan was twenty years less than today, when infant mortality rates were high, and before the discovery of the germ theory of disease. Any pet owner is not prohibited from using homeopathic agents, they are not considered drugs and are readily available to anyone who wants to purchase them.

People who object to the funding of research projects should understand that without those sources there would be no research. Find a cure and make a profit, is that not the American way?
EdA,

I'll admit I'm out in left-field. Seems like I live out there! The human medical analogy was used as an example of how sometimes there may be no profit to finding the cure!

I am not defending homeopathy, nor am I trying to impugn modern veterinary medicine. I am trying to suggest that there are incentives for companies with a profit motive to protect their interests. That is also the American way!

Perhaps I'm too cynical. Hard not to be in this day and age.

Swack
 
#40 ·
There is certainly a connection due to the first post of the thread regarding the resolution by the AVMA to discredit a RAW diet, or ancestral diet (primal diet).

Swack goes on to say that the foods vets are recommending to their clients are primarily grain, not exactly what was on the ancestral or primal diet list. Is this because the pet food companies are so well connected to vets and vet schools? I'm sure you haven't seen Hill's Science Diet funding a study that compares a raw food diet to their high carbohydrate foods.

Swack is very much correct in saying that a 'real food' diet for humans would cure many diseases, and the same can be said for our dogs. The nutritional analysis of the ancestral diet shows that animals obtained 49% of their calories from protein, 44% from fats, and the other 6% from carbohydrates. Hill's Science diet contains 25% protein 16% fat and 51% carbs! Now where is the science behind that?

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/hills-science-diet-dog-food-adult-dry/

Now just go try and find the carbohydrate value on a bag of dog food! They don't have it for a reason. You have to figure it out for yourself.

Yes, there is much that the dog food companies aren't telling us and this includes the AVMA by the dismissal of a raw diet.

I am also not defending homeopathy, but trying to create awareness to AVMA decisions that affect our dogs.
 
#41 ·
There is a financial interest here and that belongs to those that are charging for BS treatments that have no proven scientific effect. Show me one double blind study that shows a proven benefit to feeding raw diets, not just hear say. Name one nutrient that been discovered in raw diets that is not present in cooked diets. I would also mention that is not possible feed a complete diet containing all the nutrients dogs need daily without adding a supplement. Can you define "ancestral diet". Americans love to be sold "miracle cures". Here's to Lydia Pinkham!
 
#44 · (Edited)
Here is the FAQ and resource list used by AVMA to make their recommendation on raw food. The recommendation is not around the health of the raw diet but more surrounding the safety of raw food and how easily it could be to poison your dog (salmonella etc.). Pretty sensible IMO.

https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/FAQs/Pages/Raw-Pet-Foods-and-the-AVMA-Policy-FAQ.aspx

https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/R...ces-for-the-AVMA-policy-on-raw-pet-foods.aspx

Swack,

Off the original subject but there's a reason why dogs are dogs and wolves are wolves. Dogs eat exactly what humans eat, including grains. Dogs began to differentiate themselves by hanging around camps and eating the scraps. I would actually imagine there wouldn't have been much meat besides bones fed to dogs for a long time (including to my grandfather's dogs who ate scraps their whole lives). It was too valuable to humans and didn't go to waste. Sorry Swack, I know you're big on the grain free thing but it just doesn't hold water for me either historically, academically, or through common sense. It seems to be the fad diet of the moment. Just my opinion.
 
#45 · (Edited)
Swack,

Off the original subject but there's a reason why dogs are dogs and wolves are wolves. Dogs eat exactly what humans eat, including grains. Dogs began to differentiate themselves by hanging around camps and eating the scraps. I would actually imagine there wouldn't have been much meat besides bones fed to dogs for a long time (including to my grandfather's dogs who ate scraps their whole lives). It was too valuable to humans and didn't go to waste. Sorry Swack, I know you're big on the grain free thing but it just doesn't hold water for me either historically, academically, or through common sense. It seems to be the fad diet of the moment. Just my opinion.
dpate,

I have no problem with you disagreeing. We're all entitled to our opinions. I understand what you are saying about the differences between dogs and wolves and how domesticated dogs became a different "breed" from wolves. Incidentally, a great book on the subject is Dogs, A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger.

However, I do see some glaring deficiencies in your logic. You state: "Dogs eat exactly what humans eat, including grains." So, am I supposed to believe that the ancestors of our dogs sat by the trash-heap at the edge camp and only ate what their human companions threw away? They were 100% reliant on humans for their sustenance? My own dogs while in the woods with me supplement their diets with rodents, insects, deer droppings, grass and other plants, carrion, bones and who knows what else. Yet ancestral dogs ate "exactly what humans eat". I don't buy it.

Humans have only been agrarian for the past 10,000 years. That's not long enough for our own anatomy and physiology to adapt to the dietary changes agriculture brought, nor has it been enough time for canine anatomy and physiology to change, even if they did eat "exactly what humans eat". 10,000 years is a blink of the eye in evolutionary time. The humans dogs evolved with were hunter gathers for hundreds of thousands of years. Those dogs helped to provide for their own sustenance in a natural canine way. The diet their bodies evolved being nourished by did not include appreciable cereal grains nor did their primal human companions diet. For you to say that: "the grain free thing . . . just doesn't hold water for me either historically, academically, or through common sense." defies logic IMHO.

Swack
 
#46 ·
I think it really depends what sports your dog participates whether your dog benefits from grains (carbohydrates) or not.

According to several studies I've read on feeding the canine athlete, dogs who participate in 'sprint' to 'intermediate' type of activities lasting from 30 seconds to several minutes can benefit from diets high in carbohydrates because glycogen and glucose are the predominant fuel for that activity.

For the dog who works hours at a time, for example in hunting, higher fat intake is necessary to properly fuel the muscles. High carb diets fed to endurance dogs can cause watery stools and dehydration.

Burning fat improves the efficiency of energy utilized in performance animals and reduces breathing effort during excercise. When fatty acids are burned as fuel, less carbon dioxide is produced as compared to carbohydrates. The reduced CO2 is believed to reduce breathing effort during strenuous exercise. This makes burning fat metabolically cooler than burning protein, and minimizing the increase in body temps is very beneficial for dogs working in endurance events especially in warmer environments.

Therefore, any dogs participating in the following events should receive a high carb diet:
Flyball
Agility
Lure Coursing

And the dogs participating in these events would benefit from a low carb, high fat diet:
Sled dog racing
Pack Hound hunts
Working livestock
Field Trials
Search and Rescue
 
#47 ·
Tammy, I am curious why field trials would be included with the other low carb/high fat activities. Though they do it several times in a day, our dogs seem to me to be "sprinting" or exerting maximum effort for repeated brief runs. Does the fact of repetition include them with the ones like pack hunters or sled dogs? Not saying I know any better but just truly curious.
 
#48 ·
Carol most nutritionist with in depth knowkedge of the requirements for various types of canine athletic activities consider retriever field trial events neither purely sprint nor endurance and therefore having nutritional requirements somewhat different from sled dogs. A recommended diet of 30% protein 20% fat was not a dietary balance dreamed up but rather one based on scientific studies of athletic dogs performing as competitive retrievers do.
 
#49 ·
Well that explains why the Euk 30/20 has always done just fine for mine. I was just surprised to see the retrievers in the group with the sledders. I'm not one to choose a food per the latest trends. If it works I stick with it. But I always like to know the latest info, and to learn to discern between fad and fact. That seems to be getting harder to do every day.
 
#50 ·
Carol,

It would depend on what type of work out your dogs get daily and on the weekends.

According to Robert Gillett DVM, Sports Medicine Veterinary Services, "Strength/power events are of short duration (< 2 minutes) and are performed at intensities that are maximal or supramaximal. Some events are intermediate, they are performed at varying intensities for a duration of 2-4 minutes. Endurance events usually last longer than four minutes and are performed at intensities < 90% of maximal aerobic power (VO2 max)."

I know big tests at field trials can take 7-8 minutes on land and 15+ minutes on water. So that would explain why it would be considered endurance.

Here is a link to his article http://www.sportsvet.com/Art3.html

I obtained the work out intensities from Purina. They also publish the calorie requirements in the same report.

Do your own research at
http://www.purinavets.eu/PDFs/ResearchReport_vol9-issue1.pdf

Calorie requirements written by Nestle Purina in above article are as follows:


ActivityProtein % of CaloriesFat % of CaloriesCarbohydrate % of Calories
Sprint253045
Intermediate>=2535-6510-40
Endurance35>5510-20

FYI Purina Pro Plan 30/20 contains 30% Protein 20% Fat and 35% Carbs
 
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