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Michael Ellis - New DVD

27K views 94 replies 32 participants last post by  jaymay75 
#1 ·
I just completed a 2 day course at the Michael Ellis School for Dog Trainers in California. Michael is a truly gifted trainer who teaches reward based motivational training for all dogs of all disciplines, including protection sports (his sport of choice.) I have a 4 year old, black lab who was trained utilizing Michael's training techniques; he is highly motivated and mutil-talented in dog sports (agility, dock diving, nosework, field training and bite work).

Michael recently acquired two black lab pups who he will be rearing to complete a field training DVD utilizing motivational reward based training demonstrating all the standard field drills. From what I understand there will be no traditional pressure based force fetch methods - purely motivational reward based training. It will include force to water, force to pile, etc... Before anyone begins the discussion that field training cannot be reliable without pressure, please be aware that Michael is a 4 quadrant trainer and does utilize adverse methods. However, his foundation work is reward based and this is where he will begin the DVD.

I am incredibly excited to see Michael's evolution into field training. The retriever world will be a better place with his teaching techniques.

For those who are unfamiliar with Michael Ellis here is a link to his training philosophy.

http://michaelellisschool.com/lecture.htm

Tanya and Enzo
San Jose, California
 
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#5 ·
I am curious too, I have a pile of his DVD's and they are all good. One of my puppy buyers also attended a seminar with him recently (maybe the same one as you Tanya) and was telling me about his new Lab puppy project. I assume that he has worked with some field trainers to learn the 'traditional' process and see what the finished product looks like and will be adapting from that?
 
#6 ·
Good point. It think it would be very tough for even the best trainer to go in and train a MH or above without a bit of an apprenticeship (perhaps a long one), learning what is expected of the dog and how folks have traditionally gotten there. I don't know Michael personally but after seeing a bunch of his DVDs I think if anyone can do it, he could.

Interested to find out more...
 
#10 ·
I said...so it won't be another year until it's done!??! and he said, no, he and his assistant trainer Lindsay each will raise a pup and incorporate them into the DVD as they grow up. So it should be less than a year. He's already done his background research. From what he said, they're ready to start filming soon. As I know more I will post (I'm hoping to be kept in some kind of loop to know what's going on. At the very least I will send him periodic emails to (hopefully) get an update.)
 
#9 ·
Are you saying Ellis is going to try to demonstrate all of the drills using only two quadrants?

With the right dog that isn't exactly rocket science.

He'll produce a nice DVD though. He is one of the best public speakers and presenters of training theory I have ever seen (and I study something every single day).
 
#11 ·
Yes, but keep in mind it's only the foundation training which he will gear towards field work. Once the dog knows the command, Michael is not opposed to using correction. How far he takes the training into the field will depend on the DVD's success I'm sure. You can bet I'll keep the bug in his ear :)
 
#13 ·
...keep in mind it's only the foundation training which he will gear towards field work. Once the dog knows the command, Michael is not opposed to using correction. How far he takes the training into the field will depend on the DVD's success I'm sure...
Interesting to follow, as Mr. Ellis not long ago told a friend who inquired about e-collar use with schutzhund, if I may paraphrase, to "follow the retriever trainers, they're light years ahead of everybody else at how they use the collar." So how far he takes his training into the field might depend on something other than DVD sales...

MG
 
#15 ·
Interesting to follow, as Mr. Ellis not long ago told a friend who inquired about e-collar use with schutzhund, if I may paraphrase, to "follow the retriever trainers, they're light years ahead of everybody else at how they use the collar." So how far he takes his training into the field might depend on something other than DVD sales...

MG
When "teaching" concepts, there are some of us who don't want to pressure our dogs into compliance but rather use motivational rewards. There is definitely a time and a place for the ecollar.

I'm inclined to think that the paraphrase is taken out of context. Yes, field training has successfully used the collar to incorporate training better than the way most people first used the concept of the ecollar; however, I believe ME is now using a much more effective way of ecollar training with much less fallout if any.
 
#22 ·
Traditional Retriever Training is not all that she doesn't understand.
Michael Ellis is NOT a 2Q believer, or trainer.

He has even come out and said in plain English, that you really can't train a dog by using nothing but Positive Reinforcement.

Start watching at the 35 minute mark.
 
#25 ·
I've posted links to Ellis many times. In fact, to the above video itself.

He has a really simple system of markers and communication that I find very useful with dogs of all shapes and sizes.

He is a good communicator and puts the science into English for you. He also has a vast amount of knowledge that sounds like it's based on experience and extensive research.

If he is able to address some of the common issues in early retriever development using his system, I think people would benefit.

From there his philosophy on pressure is very similar if not exactly the same as the nationally accepted retriever programs.
 
#30 ·
Read it again.

I do believe that she is incorrectly praising him for NOT using two of the quadrants, and simultaneously (and also incorrectly) accusing Traditional Retriever Trainers of ONLY using those same two quadrants that she doesn't like.
 
#31 · (Edited)
copterdoc

Post #1 says "...please be aware that Michael is a 4 quadrant trainer and does utilize adverse (sic) methods."

I think that she is advocating motivational training during the "teaching" portion of a dog's training. Aversives come later. (Teach, force, reinforce.)
 
#39 ·
This is the way I read her post. The lady was just looking for other ways to train that were less at first. If there is and Ellis can produce, then let us hear it out. IMO
 
#32 ·
MIke E is a great teacher and speaker. He has the necessary info ready to speak in correct order for learning.

I'm sure like any great trainer who has switched disciplines that there will be a learning curve,,,,whether you went from winning retriever nationals to training bomb dogs , or from retriever training to schutzhund ,,, or winning nationals to agility ,or whatever. It takes time to learn the new system and the little nuances that come with it. The more disciplines you cross over to the easier it is to incorporate methods and techniques.

In the training world individuals in each discipline thinks the're discipline is the most difficult to master,,, the retriever world is often the most closed minded about how to train a dog,, not quite sure why tht is. But it still WAY behind in puppy development,, which I am seeing as one of the most crucial periods in the dogs life in which a trainer should capitalize on.

Pete
 
#36 ·
I enjoy watch Ellis in his videos because he is an excellent speaker. It will be interesting to see how he does with his retriever video but obviously as a smart man it comes down to him being able to make more money by reaching out to a bigger (new) crowd. I am not saying he won't do well, I think he knows dogs very well and as someone mentioned earlier, once he gets over the learning curve of that new dog game I'm sure he could excel. Releasing a DVD though I don't think classifies that as excelling. I would like to see him raise the pups up and campaign them, so we could really see how his spin on retriever training translates into real, tangible results. Thats just me though
 
#58 ·
I wish he would to. But unfortunately his sport of choice is protection and considering he barely has time to compete in his own sport I doubt he'll campaign the two retrievers he currently is raising. Although someone will get a nice pup with great foundation skills.
 
#37 ·
Cass, remind me again - in developing your spaniel pup, where and from whom up close and personal did you and the cocker get most of your D&E (development and encouragement) from? - and then there was the guy who threw in the Retriev-R trainer to boot, right?

I agree, Ellis is a great communicator, could listen to (and watch) him for days on end. Looking forward to how he fares in communicating with retrievers - pretty sure he will succeed.

MG
 
#38 ·
Hahahaha, yes MG I am a big supporter of retriever trainers, even though I don't have a retriever (don't tell the dog that). Speaking of launchers - I took it out on the lake (not water work, the lake is solid right now, almost 20 inches of ice on it still LOL) the other day to try it out and it works like a charm. Thanks again!
 
#41 ·
In the training world individuals in each discipline thinks the're discipline is the most difficult to master,,, the retriever world is often the most closed minded about how to train a dog,, not quite sure why tht is. But it still WAY behind in puppy development,, which I am seeing as one of the most crucial periods in the dogs life in which a trainer should capitalize on.
This is very important to overcome:close-mindedness. There are many ways to train a retriever. Just look at Hillman's DVD how popular it has become. Who would have thought some would follow this program and all for the better. And how great is it that we now train the pup right away rather than wait like it mentions in James Lamb Free's book. "It is safe to start a few simple retrieves at 8 or 9 months!!!""but save your own time by waiting until he is full 12 months old." How far have we come! As I said in my other post let us hear others out. You just never know!IMO
 
#48 ·
People are watching Hillman's stuff, but how many of the "old guard" have actually embraced it? Anyone besides Dennis Voigt?

I see people on here all the time claiming that they are using and following Hillman, starting with his puppy training DVD, but few actually seem to go the whole 9 yards. When it comes time to force fetch, they switch to something else.

Then another huge faction is doing traffic cop in addition to, not instead of, what they were doing before.

I see the new people, the blank slates such as myself, looking at what else is out there but the Old Guard is doing the same old same I think.
 
#71 ·
Got on this a little late but it sounds to Me like Michael Ellis is trying to take the same route
as Fred Hassen. Switching from Maligators to labs. As he is a breeder and trainer of Malinois
However I have Yet to ever see him prove himself. Meaning show a dog in a trial and let's
look at some scores.
 
#83 ·
I should note Hassen and Ellis are COMPLETELY different training styles. Hassen focuses primarily on the e-collar while Ellis is a much more balanced approach. Ellis is very consistent to the methods used by retriever folks. There's no big miracle here but I have used Ellis's communication approach with my latest dog and she responds extremely well to it.
 
#84 ·
There always seems to be a svengali type coming up the pike that markets to animal fancier peeps , that has a way to train easier , faster, and with less or no force. When they consistently win American Field Trials,they will gain the attention of the players of the game.Until then, well, its entertaining to see what they are selling.
 
#85 ·
I agree.

That being said I enjoy learning, watching, listening.
You don't have to like every trainer and every method. Just because you watch someone or something doesn't mean you must become it. Sometimes I learn just as much 'why that won't work for me' as I do 'that will work for me'.

This thread got waayyy off topic. If you don't like his methods or his ideas no one is forcing you to buy into them.
It's very simple, just don't buy his new DVD. It's not that tough.

The OP was simply bringing this up for those who wish to look into other ideas, or those who already like his stuff, or those looking into other, different, trainers. I don't see any harm in that.

And I don't see how her opinion on 2 or 4 quadrant training, her opinion on FF, or pressure vs praise has anything to do with the original topic lmao
 
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