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Positive or Negavite based training for 6-month retriever

7K views 29 replies 21 participants last post by  JustinS 
#1 ·
Hi,

By PR I specifically mean the treat-based clicker training. NR I'm referring specifically to the use of prong and/or shock collars. I know this is a fairly polarizing subject, but I'm hoping for some objective advice.

Our situation is that our retriever will not be a hunting dog, but we do want him trained well and would like to do CD and UD trials as a way to give us goals and structure to his training. We have a trainer in town that is fairly well recognized, using prong collars and such for NR type training. After our first session with her she just has us working on walking him with the prong collar.

Now, people close to me have taught me this type of training is inhumane, and can be especially dangerous to both the dog's mental and physical health. So, I'm a bit worried about continuing on with this training. But, on the other hand, it is undoubtedly effective, and I'm curious to know if this stigma is due to people misusing such devices or can NR, even when taught properly, really 'ruin the dog', instill trust issues, etc?

Is PR just as effective for basic obedience? I mean if they are both effective, and especially if I don't need a rock solid fetch, is there any reason to choose NR over PR?
 
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#3 ·
I don't doubt that. The prong collar certainly does look like some sort of medieval torture device. She even had us super glue the rubber tips on the it, other than one link to get it on and off, so it's not going to be digging in to him. I mean I'm leaning more and more towards this being humane and an effective training method, it is just counter to what I've been led to believe by others. And I'm trying to get a sense of the relative merits of PR vs NR from someone who isn't too biased (i.e. a professional trainer trying to get my money).
 
#5 · (Edited)
Frybasket, your post comes on the heels of a rather heated debate between PR and conventional retriever training methods for field trials and hunt test. In your case, just wanting a nice, obedient dog for around the house and to do obedience, I suggest you get with a good obedience trainer. There are a few, Janice Gunn is one who frequent this site. Maybe you could edit the thread title with obedience training, I'm afraid people are shying away from the thread due to the huge discussion and debate we just got over.

John
 
#8 · (Edited)
Frybasket, your post comes on the heels of a rather heated debate between PR and conventional retriever training for field trials and hunt test. In your case, just wanting a nice, obedient dog for around the house and to do obedience, I suggest you get with a good obedience trainer. There are a few, Janice Gunn is one who frequent this site. Maybe you could edit the thread title with obedience training, I'm afraid people are shying away from the thread due to the huge discussion and debate we just got over.

John
Thanks, I was afraid of that. Don't want to start any arguments just looking for advice. If someone wants to give their honest opinion on the subject without fear of backlash, please feel free to PM me.

which method are you better with ? Have you used one method before and found success with it ?

the program is only as good as the user and its implimentation
I agree with this. My first retriever was well-trained when we got him, so I really didn't have to do much. Basically, just PR to reinforce what he already knew. I took him hiking and backpacking in the Colorado Rockies and never had much of an issue, though I did keep him leashed. Unfortunately we had to put him down recently. My wife isn't much of an outdoorswomen, so I want another partner in crime. It would be nice to let him off leash on some excursions, I was just never confident enough in my old guys recall to let him go too far. So basically I have no expertise in either method, though I have done more reading and research on PR.
 
#6 ·
which method are you better with ? Have you used one method before and found success with it ?

the program is only as good as the user and its implimentation
 
#9 ·
If you are working with an OB trainer- has that person trained toward the same goal as yours?( competitive obedience?), If so and she has been successful with it-and you are happy with the attitudes of the dogs that she has worked with-then you are probably on the right page with her protocols.
Training tools( prong collars,chain collars, e-collars OR clickers- treats,etc......) are only as useful and effective as the person utilizing them. Done properly there is nothing inhumane with this type of training.
 
#10 ·
Yes, the trainer we are working with at the moment is all about competitive obedience. I don't even think she offers retriever training specifically for hunting. We are doing one on one sessions to start, and then we can move on to basic ob up to competitive level if we wish with her. We are just trying to decide now if we continue down this route or switch to someone else that uses primarily PR/clicker training. I guess this confirms what I'm thinking: when used properly, these tools are not necessarily inhumane.
 
#11 ·
I think positive methods are great and many dogs can learn a lot that way. BUT, I can think of very few dogs I have met over many years that were truly reliable off-leash trained strictly PR. So - if you really do want a dog that can enjoy the freedom of running free, swimming etc. that should be a consideration. I think if my dogs were able to talk they would agree that the NR training they had was a small 'price' to pay for the freedom they now have!
 
#12 ·
That is one thing I wanted for my last retriever, especially in the river or swimming. He had a pretty strong prey drive, took out more than one of the neighborhood cats and would have gone after the first otter he saw. We never let him off-leash in the wild just because I was never confident enough in that recall, so the only 'free' swimming he got was in the pond at the dog park. I guess that's another pro for NR. So far I'm really not seeing many negatives...
 
#16 ·
Is PR just as effective for basic obedience? I mean if they are both effective, and especially if I don't need a rock solid fetch, is there any reason to choose NR over PR?

Yes. The answer is up to you and how YOU feel about either.

I've clicker trained my golden to do all sorts of stupid pet tricks (e.g. plays dead when I shoot her - cue is hand as gun and pointing at her). She also hunts (not as much the last few years due to my focus on my lab). And she was e-collar conditioned as well. She helped out a couple of weeks ago, in fact. :)

Canidae Dog Vehicle Soil Hunting dog


You can get "solid" obediance with clicker training for what your goals are. Pick up Spector's book. You'll be fine. http://www.amazon.com/Clicker-Train...qid=1352150178&sr=8-1&keywords=morgan+spector
 
#17 ·
#18 ·
Is any good training program entirely negative or positive? In my completely amatuer opinion (I'm very new to this too!) there is a healthy dose of the positive and negative in what I've seen. As a newbie I came into training thinking the stereotypical things about the tools used and their negative stigmas. Go out and see experienced trainers work with both the positive and the negative and make your own decision. My views did a complete 180 because I quickly realized that I was completely ignorant to what I thought each was and chances are the people who helped me form those opinions were equally ignorant. You have to see it for yourself before you can make a rational decision.
 
#19 ·
Frybasket,

I am a mainly pr trainer, but throw in some minor punishment, too. I have found after much study, watching of videos and reading clicker training books that you can accomplish some major obedience and companion dog goals in a very enjoyable and short amount of time. But either method you chose, you will have to do your homework. Either method will work, but like others have said, you have to know what you're doing.

Good resources to get started are:
1. Do a youtube search for Janice Gunn. She has posted many free videos on youtube that clearly demonstrate clicker/positive methods for training toward an obedience title. She also has a web site where you can see what her credentials are. www.tntkennels.com She is VERY well known for her accomplishments.

2.Clickertraining.com Many books, videos and articles to make it easy for you to learn about the method. It is a Karen Pryor (Mother of clicker training) site.

What I love about it is the speed at which you can teach a dog a new skill. Also, it really creates a neat, fast bond between you and dog. Other methods may do that, too.

Good luck and feel free to ask specific questions. I'm not an expert, but have been studying for a while and may be able to point you to an expert's opinion on a specific issue.

Jennifer
 
#20 ·
All my dogs run in flat collars around home, on the bike and when I walk. Now for field work different matter. Nothing wrong with a prong. Be sure you can wean your dog of the prong if you are going to do obedience competition. Be sure you learn how to use the prong collar. Discuss this with your instructor. Good luck to you.
 
#26 ·
Forgive me if I'm telling you something you already know, but I think you are confusing "pet" obedience with competition "obedience."

"Pet obedience", aka good manners or small-o obedience, is what most people mean when they say "obedience." They want a dog that acts civilized in public, plus very reliable at a few crucial commands, notably Come and Stay.

Competition "obedience" (sometimes called capital-O or cap-O obedience) is actually more like doggie dressage or a doggie performance than what most people would call "obedience". An obedience trial consists of highly stylized routines that demand (at the higher levels) the dog learn some fairly complicated tasks and perform them with excruciating attention to detail. It has about as much relation to pet obedience as modern field trials have with hunting. Most (not all!) dogs that make it to the higher levels of competition obedience are well-mannered, if only because they spend a whole lot of time traveling, training with other dogs and people, etc. On the other hand, there are many, many extremely well-mannered dogs that would not be able to get an obedience title.

From your posts, it sounds like a reliable recall under all circumstances is extremely important to you (as it should be for all dogs). Honestly, I think an e-collar is just about the most effective way to get a reliable recall in the face of overwhelming temptation, such as a running deer or a squirrel. If you choose that route, be sure you know how to teach it correctly. You can't just go out in an open field and zap the dog and expect him to know how to respond. He's as likely to run away in panic as he is to come to you if you don't teach him, first. Also, note that, if you're on a hike and the dog is out of sight, you'll have to rely on prior training. It's not a good idea to zap a dog you can't see. He might be headed your way or somehow trapped, etc.

If you want to do trial obedience, you will be using a whole lot of positive reinforcement. Unlike hunt training (where the retrieve itself is a powerful reward), there is virtually nothing intrinsically rewarding to the dog about heeling in a circle whilst paying rapt attention to every nuance of a handler's movement. You will have to make it rewarding. Most high level, successful obedience trainers use a ton of positive reinforcement (usually treats) with very judicious and careful applications of gentle compulsion. In cap-O Obedience, there are a million ways for the dog to do an exercise wrong and only one way to do it right. The dog will get very discouraged, very fast, if you only correct for all the wrong responses.

There are many good books and videos about competition obedience. You could start with Janice Gunn's videos, Adele Yunck's and Judy Byron's "Competitive Obedience: a Balancing Act", and Diane Baumann's "Beyond Basic Obedience." Also, go to obedience trials, watch the UD and CDX classes and ask the handlers whose dogs do great work who they train with in your area.
 
#27 ·
I am not a professional by any means but I really like to use both types of learning. Treats and play when things go right but there are also times when I need to correct my dogs with an e collar. I like the e collar because I took a long time to condition them to the collar before I ever turned it on. I had a few behavioral problems that with one or two corrections with the collar and they do not exist anymore. I also treat the sh-- out of my dogs when I am training and they are doing what I want them to do. As long as you do not abuse your corrections and you feel that what you are doing to the dog is fair for the action, you will probably not have any major issues. Treat your dogs with respect and care and they will trust you with their lives.
 
#28 ·
Most folks have a fairly incomplete view of what positive gundog training is. I have trained a good number of gundogs with traditional compulsion methods and fair number of gundogs with positive methods. Here is a synopsis of positive gundog training. At the bottom is a table comparing traditional compulsion training and positive training for gundogs.

http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/positivegundogs.php
 
#29 ·
Like stated before it all depends on your goals and what you feel most comfortable. You can train your dog with with corrections without having to use aversive measures. Most PR trainer go this route (they say PR bc it's easier to explain). You can also have your dog reliable to your commands using PR. My 8 month Curly is very reliable to come and I haven't begun any collar conditioning.

As for NR or the use of aversive corrections it definitely can make the training go faster but it's also easier to mess up if you're a novice. Remember before you can expect your dog to do something on a collar you have to show them what you want.

As for the Prong or choker debate. Prong collars are a lot safer. Chokers are exactly that they choke your dog. The loop can go all the way down to inches. While the prong collar looks like a mid-evil torture device it evenly distributes the pressure around the dogs neck and it can only go as small as the inner prongs.

The choice is yours but if you can't use it in the ring then why train to it. (Retriever training is a lot different since dogs can be hundreds of yards away). It sounds like I'm biased towards PR but I feel as if you know about the NR side of training.
 
#30 ·
Now I have not read all the posts but I have skimmed over the majority of them so I apologize if I reiterate something someone has already posted, but I have been a firm believer that a regular choke chain was the best - most humane way to teach a dog how to heel and sit on command with additonal treats and fun bumpers to keep their spirits up - that being said I now have a 6 month old pup who taught me differently. I was at wits end and I kept getting told to buy a prong collar and finally did. Now I dont know what it was, It may have been the repeated walks for a couple of months plus the collar but what I do know is yesterday with only the choke chain he was not going to heel today I walked him twice with the prong collar and with in a few short twitches of my wrist he was walking at my side and did it like he had been doing it all along. during the walk he was rewarded with treats when he sat and then afterward we did some sit then here work with treats and then some fun bumpers he is happy as he was yesterday and being more obedient

take it for what it is worth - I was like you and not really sure about the prong collar and like you I like the results it is giving - the collar required much few corrections to get the desired result with much less torque on my back from him pulling - ie more humane

I hope this helps, I am not a competitive obedience trainer by any means but do require an obedient dog, but good luck and I hope all works out for you.
 
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