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YellowXChocolate=Blacks (???)

7K views 28 replies 17 participants last post by  Jere 
#1 ·
I recently bred a yellow male of mine to a chocolate female of mine. The combination produced 4 black puppies. Was I surprised! Considering I was expecting yellows and chocolates for the most part. I am posting this for someone to help me understand the factors. Any info or links will be greatly appreciated.
 
#2 ·
Were those four puppies the entire litter?

Black is expected when breeding chocolate to properly pigmented yellow (i.e. yellow with a black nose).

To get chocolate, both parents have to be chocolate factored. In this case, your yellow would have to carry the "b" allele, and you would get half black, half chocolate on average.

To get yellow, both parents have to be yellow factored. In this case, your chocolate would have to carry the "e" allele, and you would get half black, half yellow, on average.

If you bred a yellow that carried chocolate to a chocolate that carried yellow, you would expect 1/4 dudleys (yellow with brown nose), 1/4 standard yellow, 1/4 chocolate, and 1/4 black, on average.

If you bred a chocolate that didn't carry yellow to a yellow that didn't carry chocolate, all puppies would be black. In any breeding, if one parent doesn't carry the recessive allele, the recessive trait is not expected to be expressed in the offspring. That goes for EIC, CNM, PRA, and color.

Amy Dahl
 
#8 ·
The color genetics in our breed are so simple compared to most... it really is something you should understand BEFORE breeding. I agree that the blueknights site is very user friendly.
Very nicely said Nicole.
 
#12 ·
Yes, comparitively speaking, and in most instances it is "so simple."

I think I understand the basic genetics of coat color in the LR, that determined by the B, b, E and e alleles, thoroughly; but sometimes this may not be enough.

I have a 2+ year old black LR from a black (BBEE per Vetgen) x black (BBEe or BbEe per breeding results) breeding. His undercoat fur is brown and some guard hair (in the area where the upper and lower lips meet) shows a reddish brown tint. This isn't so easy for me to figure.

I found a hint, maybe, at the vetgen site: http://vetgen.com/canine-coat-color.html where they show a pathway to solid black or brown color through the various K and A alleles. I wondering if this is what I'm seeing in this pup. Any one have any ideas? I presume this color anomaly is NOT very common in black Labs but folks here have seen many more than I.

Jere
 
#14 ·
I have a 2+ year old black LR from a black (BBEE per Vetgen) x black (BBEe or BbEe per breeding results) breeding. His undercoat fur is brown and some guard hair (in the area where the upper and lower lips meet) shows a reddish brown tint.
Is his undercoat brown at all times or just when he's about to blow coat? I have a couple blacks here that get quite red/brown when their dead coat is coming out. Is he outside all day? The color by his lips is more than likely "stained" from being wet, just as you'd see in a lighter colored dog.

Concentration or shade of yellow (or chocolate for that matter) IS more difficult to understand, but the overall picture of black, yellow, chocolate is easy peasy :)
 
#16 · (Edited)
Is his undercoat brown at all times or just when he's about to blow coat? I have a couple blacks here that get quite red/brown when their dead coat is coming out. Is he outside all day? The color by his lips is more than likely "stained" from being wet, just as you'd see in a lighter colored dog.

Concentration or shade of yellow (or chocolate for that matter) IS more difficult to understand, but the overall picture of black, yellow, chocolate is easy peasy :)
The undercoat is brown all year long, all the time, brown from skin to ends and distinctly different from the black hair. Once you've seen it, the brown cast is quite noticeable on his back and sides. He's an inside dog, spends no long periods outside (in the sun) on a day to day basis except when we're on long hunting trips. His water work is very infrequent. I think the reddish/brown by the lips is real, but can't prove that without some chemistry I don't think I'll do or have done - yet. Apparently his dam and a sister are similarly "marked." I may shave a patch of hair and separate the two parts sometime to get a picture. I do have some photos of the face area. I'm looking for a spectrophotometer to use to analyse the color but there are not any out here in the woods!

Jere
 
#9 ·
Just call them "Dark Chocolates". You can list them for sale with the Silver Labs.

Sorry, just kidding. It looks like you already have the people in the know giving you good info. Congrats on the pups thought.

Mark
 
#24 · (Edited)
Hmm that's an interesting one; I think you probably have an expression gene affecting your color. Tan points, brindle, perhaps a saddling effect usually only seen in the yellow coat coming out in the black coat. Happens every once in a great while, a genetic color test could probably find it.

Labs having Tan Points

Early breeding records indicate that a Labrador puppy with tan points on the ears, muzzle, and above the eyes (as found in the Doberman and Rottweiler) would occasionally be whelped to pure-bred Labrador parents. Breeders attributed this to previous interbreeding of Labradors with Gordon Setters during the early history of the breed. Because this trait was considered undesirable as a characteristic of the breed, breeders chose not to breed individuals expressing the trait in hopes of reducing frequency of its expression in future offspring.

Today, it is recognized that tan points are controlled by the "at" allele of the A locus and that it is recessive to most of the alleles found at the A locus of Labs. Because this allele is recessive, it may be passed through many generations before a breeder is aware that the allele is present. In order for the allele to be expressed, a carrier would have to be bred to another carrier of this same allele and both parents would have to be carriers of the wild-type (E+) Mc1 receptor. This explains the low frequency of expression of this trait in the current Labrador population.

or perhaps K gene variation
http://labradornet.com/brindletanpoint.html

Did you ever test? I'd be interested in the results. could be environmental but that is pretty red for sun-fade ;)
 
#26 ·
...

Did you ever test? I'd be interested in the results. could be environmental but that is pretty red for sun-fade ;)
I am thinking about it but want some input first, especially from the VetGen geneticist. Haven't found the price schedule for the full blown color tests yet either. I'm not sure I want to put lots of $$ into this quest. The "red" around the mouth is there always, the undercoat is red/brown? down to the roots.
 
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