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AKC Field Trial Rule Question

3K views 14 replies 10 participants last post by  Ted Shih 
#1 ·
I'll start off by saying this has nothing at all to do with any recent trial ... lest anyone think that it is any critique of any judge(s). Just one of those "what-if" conversations that went off on a tangent.

Secondly, it is unlikely that it would ever occur in a major stake. It is also likely that it would be an extremely rare situation in almost any field trial.

Must a 1st placement be awarded in a field trial stake?

There IS a rule that: a first placement cannot be withheld if other placements are awarded. Evidently, that rule evolved from a situation where judges withheld the 1st & 2nd placements in a Qualifying stake because they felt that none of the dogs who completed the tests were of QAA caliber. This was related to me by someone who actually remembers the event, which goes back some time ago. That created quite a hoo-ha, and AKC responded by making the rule that would preclude that occurring again.

How this rule came to be explains why it is likely to be an extremely rare occurrence. It also explains why it is pretty inconceivable that it would ever occur in a major stake. And since Derby placements don't carry any official AKC designation of any kind, it would not be of much consequence there.

However, this rule would not seem to preclude the judges withholding ALL the awards, if they were adamant that none of the dogs were deserving of QAA status.

We are all familiar with the rule that says if a win is cancelled, the next placement moves up. Withholding 1st & 2nd placements would seem equivalent to "cancelling" those placements, and then move 3rd and/or 4th upward into 1st & 2nd placements ... effectively nullifying the judges' opinions that none of the dogs should be given QAA status.

So, the question really becomes whether the judges are allowed to withhold all the awards v. being compelled to give at least a 1st placement.

To Lab people this is, I am sure, of little consequence since there are more Labs who receive FCs and/or AFCs in a given year than all the dogs of the other retriever breeds combined who reach just QAA status in that year! To those other breeds, however, who have smaller field-capable gene pools to work with, the QAA status is necessary factor for maintaining more genetic diversity in breeding programs. Goldens, since 2000, have averaged only about 25 new QAA achievers each year. I'm not sure what the numbers are for the other breeds, but I'm guessing that the numbers are even smaller.

Back to the regularly scheduled programming ...
 
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#2 ·
So, the question really becomes whether the judges are allowed to withhold all the awards v. being compelled to give at least a 1st placement....
yes they are allowed, as far as I can find.
say they just let the dogs play. Only fold up the sheets of the dog that just failed and handler picked up. They go through the land series. Land blind, water blind. only calling back the dogs that got a bird. Get to the water marks. Test dogs slams it and none of the say 14 dogs do the test for one reason or another. What are judges to do? Do they go through the crumpled sheets and see who flocked up the least? How can they as all are handler pickups? I know of 2 NAHRA field tests that no dog compleated the test. I am sure at one time or another there has had to have been a trial that no dog compleated. Has to be.
 
#4 ·
.....

Get to the water marks. Test dogs slams it and none of the say 14 dogs do the test for one reason or another. What are judges to do?

.....
I'm thinking the judges probably scrapped that 4th and started over when they saw what was happening. ;-)

JS
 
#5 ·
You're right, but the judges better know the rule that they need to scrap it before all the dogs ran. If they let every dog run and fail, too late to scrap the test. I once scrapped a water blind with two dogs to run, only two dogs had not picked up. My co-judge wanted to run the last two dogs and see what happened, I had to remind him of the rule, otherwise we might have gone to the fourth with two dogs.

John
 
#3 ·
Yes. Judges can withhold all placements. They just can't skip placements. So if you award first but no second, there can be no more placements or JAMs.

From Section 3:
As a matter of general policy, this Section means that Judges may withhold all placements, or any placements following placed dogs, provided vacant placements do not occur between placed dogs, or between placed dogs and Judges Awards of Merit. Whenever a placement is withheld, no additional placements or Judges Awards of Merit (including Reserve) can be awarded after the withheld placement.
 
#9 ·
Thanks for the answer!

The end result is that if there is only one placement, that placement will be a first place ... but there is also an option for there to be no placements at all.

As John says, the judges should know the rule so they can make the right decision about scrapping a test when things are not going as anticipated.

My dog saves his best work for when he's running test dog in the forth series.:razz:
Imagine there are many who know that feeling :) Don't forget "bye" dog, too.

Just in case, it seems safer to run "bye" dog. If test dog messes up, everyone is watching. If bye dog messes up, everyone went back to their vehicles when the bye dog left the line :)
 
#10 ·
Many many moons ago, I ran a derby with Freeridin Wowie Zowie at Topeka. Third series was very hard water double. Zowie crushed it. Dog after dog handled on the memory bird. As the last dog was running, no one other than Zowie getting both birds without a handle (in the days when a handle did not mean elimination, the judges announced that they were only going to score the first mark. Zowie bobbled a bird in the fourth and got green. Judges apologized. But that's the way it goes sometimes
 
#11 ·
My question , why, another series maybe, or ? I once ran a five series amateur all- age. Last series was a water blind, orange ribbon where dog was suppose to get out. Just came from open, not explained to me, ran the water blind, dog carried beautiful line, got out about 5 feet early and got blind. Gave out three placements, did not give a fourth. If your on the business end of having placements tossed, kinda bad taste in mouth, especially in a all-age stake. One judge Applogized ,said his co-judge talked him into it, both eight point plus judges, hmm didn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy. There were more but that's an example, unless a dog doesn't get any of the chickens, what's the point, principal of it!? Or ? A QAA is hard enough in this age and a all-age placement or placements won't even respond.
 
#13 ·
I'm with you Earl, I would place a double handle rather than not award all 4 places, it is the dog's performance relative to the field not to some imaginary standard.
 
#12 · (Edited)
As far as selecting a placement by not scoring a series or a bird in a series.........


Field Trial Rules
and Standard
Procedure for
Retrievers


STANDARD PROCEDURE FOR NON-SLIP
RETRIEVER TRIALS

TRIAL PROCEDURE

3 ...........................................................................
...................................
..............
21. Tests or retrieves which are not to be considered
by the Judges at the final summing up should not be held.
 
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