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Is It Possible For An Amateur To Compete against Pros In Hunt Tests?

63K views 315 replies 102 participants last post by  Golddogs 
#1 ·
Not if you cannot get entered.
How does a test finalize and 50 minutes later the 90 dog limit is reached? HMMMMM :confused:
 
#60 ·
Exactly, Darrin. Those who actually bothered to read the OP's post and his friend's post seem to be the only ones to get what the problem is. Too many people here on RTF who don't bother to read before they type.

It's not about bashing pros, it's about bashing insider trading no matter who you are.
Is there/what is the rule regarding sharing the finalized date?
 
#64 ·
There's an easy fix to this. Any time a club limits entries, they should put in their premium when it will open for entries. This can easily be done before finalizing the event, so people have a chance to see it.

There's not a rule requiring it, but if they did, it would put the conspiracy talk to rest (maybe...for a second or two...:))

I had thought this was discussed as part of the rule when you limit entries, but I may be mistaken, or it may have gotten edited out of the final version.
 
#65 ·
Is there any chance of having the entry system work as a lottery instead of first entered gets the spot in limited entry tests? Allow all entries to be accepted into the draw for a certain time period (say a week for getting your entry into the draw) before having the lottery drawn. There would have to be a 3rd party do the lottery to make it fair though.

Could there be a way for the AKC or a software program on EE do the lottery draw and post those that are entered into a limited entry test? This same software could also draw the order of dogs on the waiting list for replacing any scratches. This would make it fair for Joe Hunter entering his dog and local pros trying to enter multiple dogs...every dog has the same chance of being entered into the test.

The logistics of running a test with 80% of the dogs being run by 2 or 3 people is a different issue on its own.

Just a thought from someone outside looking in....:2c:
 
#67 ·
Where (what state) is this happening? (90 entries in 50 minutes???!!)
 
#69 ·
Before an event can be finalized on Entry Express by the club's Event Secretary, AKC has to approve the judging slate and the event's premium. After everything has been approved by AKC, the Event Secretary can "finalize". Once finalized (a click of the FINALIZE button by the Event Secretary), the event is open for entries.
 
#70 · (Edited)
I think those people that are trying to get a Master title on their dog(s) should look into running their dogs at a "Non Master National Member" club. I know there are a few here and there and a Master National running pro will usually stay away from entering at those club events. You may have to travel a bit further, but you're more than welcomed to enter at their events. They seldom, if ever, have the need to split their entries. Just food for thought>>>>>>
 
#71 ·
I think those people that are trying to get a Master title on their dog(s) should look into running their dogs at a "Non Master National Member" club. I know they a few here and there and a Master National running pro will usually stay away from entering at those club events. You may have to travel a bit further, but you're more than welcomed to enter at their events. They seldom, if ever, have the need to split their entries. Just food for thought>>>>>>
It's a good idea in theory but, many people (myself included) really like to enter their local events. And if those happen to be MN clubs with limited entries and you find yourself in a situation like the OP described, it's kind of a slap in the face (and wallet) to find another test that might be an 8 - 10 hr. drive away, MN member or not, just to run your dog, because certain people had insider info. on date/time an event opened that you weren't privy to.
 
#73 ·
It sounds like the amateurs who run and financially support hunt tests have lost control of their sport to professional trainers who depend on amateurs for their livelihood.

Tail Wagging The Dog Regards
 
#76 ·
, ,

I agree, watched at least a dozen "owners" last weekend come forward to collect the ribbon there dog and "pro" earned for them, and can't recall any of them stepping forward to help out either, guess it's more fun to sit in a chair and watch your dog and collect a ribbon at the end of the day than participate, I can see if you want your dog to run the MN and you don't have the time or finances to do it your self then fine send the dog with someone to run it but the weekend hunt tests are a different story, run the dog yourself...
 
#74 ·
Regrettably Ed, I think all the dog games are headed in that direction.
 
#75 ·
if everyone had to snail mail the check and enter old school and we did the random draw out of a salad bowl on the test secs kitchen table none of this would be an issue. This is all Shayne's fault! Pesky little ferret changed the sport, he did.
And we all went Woo Hoo this is great! Well?????????????????????????????? hows it working out? Nobody saw this comming?
 
#79 ·
So if there's a Master HT that is limited to 90 dogs and there are 120 dogs that want to run, there will be 30 who are SOL, right?

How do any of the "solutions" offered remedy that situation? Limit number of dogs per handler, eliminate pros, eliminate EE,. etc ... there will still be 30 dogs that get shut out.

Just a matter of which ones.

JS
 
#80 · (Edited)
I've spent an hour reading and my own two-dog self is thinking, this is really, really bad. I didn't see this coming. I am a little bit afraid I might have voted for it somehow? Seemed like a good idea at the time...

Trying to think of solutions:

* OWNER must enter, not handler (nor handler's assistant--hard to monitor--but 20 entries coming from the same IP might be a tip-off to abusers?)
* Date and time of opening for entries must be published at least (one month?) in advance.
* Wait list, in order of entry.
* Scratches for injury, death, and in-season only; must be sent by the vet to EE and refund must come through Ee.

That's all I've got.

Technology is convenient when it doesn't screw everything up.
 
#86 ·
Exactly. As Helen described above it post/opens when it is approved and finalized and that depends on the HT Secretary and when they sit down and do it. It could be 9am or it could be 1130pm. Nobody knows when other than the secretary when entries will open, unless someone is suggesting a conspiracy between the "Pro's" and the HT Secretary.
This one of if not the dumbest ever posted n RTF.
I am starting to think the summertime has gotten people in a fishing mood. Lines are out, baits are swimming
 
#91 · (Edited)
I haven't seen a single HT where the "PRO" earned a GD thing!!!! The dog did it! Let's cut the pros out all together! For that matter, let's make a rule that ONLY members of the RC can enter! If a pro shouldn't be allowed to run, then some yank-dick from another club who doesn't help out shouldn't either!!!
I think you found the cure. If you don't work ,,,,,you don't play. That should cut the field down considerably. And I think because the amatuer dog enthusiest is making the pro work weekends,,,, ,,that should be punishment enough. The pro with all those dogs is already working his arsky off. :razz:

Pete
 
#93 · (Edited)
That would also cure the club of any chance of making money on a test
Ah,,which brings us back to the more the merrier concept. Which means AKC should change the rule on 60 entries being a magic number. When the count reaches 60 ,,and the scratches equal 20 the AKC still makes you split. There lies a major problem. I think clubs should have the latitude to make what they get operate smoothly. There are two many rules set in stone that throw sand in the gears when unusual circumstances arise. No different than our government really. Lets make a law mentality. I'm really starting to feel the effects of being a middle age,bald and fat american white guy. (.



Pete
 
#94 ·
Ah,,which brings us back to the more the merrier concept. Which means AKC should change the rule on 60 entries being a magic number. When the count reaches 60 ,,and the scratches equal 20 the AKC still makes you split. There lies a major problem. I think clubs should have the latitude to make what they get operate smoothly. There are two many rules set in stone that throw sand in the gears when unusual circumstances arise. No different than our government really. Lets make a law mentality. I'm really starting to feel the effects of being a middle age,bald and fat american white guy. (.

Pete
There's definitely work that can be done on scratches. Only was I can see to fix it is change the penalty. As a test chair the last thing I need is a split 10 days before a test date because I'm 3 dogs over 60 or 90, depending on 2 or 3 day event. Either way - the issue is the MN, certain regions, once a year.
 
#97 · (Edited)
So how many flights did this club have last year and ow many dogs were entered?

edit: according to EE this club had 146 master entries last year and decided to limit the entries to 90 this year. Obviously, if all run again this year 56 dogs are not going to get in. One in three dogs that ran last year will not get to this year. It looks like about the same amount of pros last year. Sadly for you the pros have the advantage of checking online throughout the day on phones or iPads as it is part of their job. I would bet they have all their dogs ready to be entered on open pages and all they have to do is wait till it opens and hit the button.

Hate to say it because I know it is a burden for some clubs to hold two flights, but when you chose to limit numbers someone is going to get butt hurt. This is a good example of just because you can do something it doesn't mean you should. Looks like they were able to run 146 master dogs last year. Maybe they should have bit the bullet and not limited the numbers.
 
#100 ·
For some people it is not about the title they earn, it is about time. Many folks want a great hnting dog and simply don't have the time or know how to do it themselves. These folks often send dogs to pro's and the the pro's suggest that they run HT as part of their training. Others already have a MH but want to run the MN and again time becomes a factor for many. If the "season" in Florida ends in May and you have not qualified you will have to go a long way (12 hours+) to get the qualifications you need to enter the MN. Many people can't afford to take Friday and Monday off work to travel to a test. The cost involved with that exceeds the cost of putting your dog with a pro to get the last qualifications.
There are also some folks that are physically unable to train or handle their dogs in HT.
I have never done this, but I know many very capable trainers who do. Guess who walks to the line with the dog at the MN?
 
#102 · (Edited)
If you're a member of this club and your event filled up in 50 minutes with mostly pro dogs,that appears to have had a heads up that it was open for entries , how many of you would help in the event? If there is no help, how successful will this club be in the future with events? To me,you've got to let the people that run the event run their dogs above any one else. If they cant run their dogs,they'll quit,I think its that simple. JMHO.
 
#107 ·
If your a member of this club and your event filled up in 50 minutes with mostly pro dogs,that appears to have had a heads up that it was open for entries , how many of you would help in the event?
I would help, and I would imagine that the rest of the folks in my club who work events would help. In fact, I typically don't enter my dogs in our hunt tests unless we need the entries so I can concentrate on what needs to be done. The way I see it is that we put on our events primarily to raise $ for the club, so we can afford things like training days, club trials etc., and also to host other folks in the region to an event to reciprocate for their holding events for me to run.
 
#103 ·
Here is something that Ed Aycock and I proposed for use in Field Trials that might be adapted to address the concerns expressed in this post

Designated Handler/Limited Entry Open



In the Designated Handler/Limited Entry Open (the “Stake”), entries shall be limited to 65 dogs - or a slightly higher number, if necessary, as described below.


In the Stake, each handler shall designate in numerical order those dogs which the handler wishes to enter in the Stake. Entries 1-5 shall be guaranteed admission into the Stake - whether or not total entries equal or exceed 65 dogs.


If, upon the close of entries, the Field Trial Secretary determines that less than 65 dogs are admitted in the Stake, those handlers who have designated more than 5 dogs for admission in the Stake shall be permitted to enter the dog the handler has previously designated as dog no. 6 into the Stake. If after all such dogs have be admitted into the Stake, the Field Trial Secretary determines that less than 65 dogs are still admitted in the Stake, those handlers who have designated more than 6 dogs for admission in the Stake shall be permitted to enter the dog the handler has previously designated as dog no. 7 into the Stake. This process shall continue until the Field Trial Secretary first determines that entries in the Stake are 65 dogs or more.


Consider the following examples


A. The Field Trial Secretary determines upon the close of entries, that if all handlers are permitted to run the dogs that they have designated, including 5 dogs per handler for those handlers who have designated five or more dogs, that 75 dogs would be admitted in the Stake - then the Stake would proceed with 75 dogs, and handlers with more than 5 dogs designated would not be permitted to enter any further dogs in the Stake.


B. The same situation, only the FTS determines that total entries, when handlers are permitted to enter 5 dogs into the Stake, are 64. Because total entries are less than 65, each handler who has previously designated a sixth dog for potential admission into the stake shall be permitted to enter that sixth dog in the stake. This is true even if the admission of each sixth dog designated by handlers with more than five dogs would result in the Stake having 80 dogs entered. All handlers who had six dogs designated for entry in the Stake would be permitted to enter the dogs that the handlers had previously designated as 1-6 in the stake.


In the event that a dog is scratched for veterinary reasons, if applicable, the handler with multiple dogs may then substitute the next designated dog for inclusion in the Stake. For example, the FTS determines that all handlers with more than 5 dogs may enter up to 7 dogs. Handler X has designated 18 for potential inclusion in the Stake. Handler X’s entry number 6 has come in season. Handler X will be permitted to enter his previously identified dog no. 8 in the trial. However, he will not be permitted to enter dog no. 9 in place of the scratched dog.
 
#104 ·
50 min, 30 min, 15 min fill ups all happened recently. I heard of some handlers hitting the submit button, as entries flooded in, only to be turned away. Just to many entries coming into the system to get your one dog into the line-up. I personally was in a bad place geographically to get notice the events had been opened up. When I did get notice two hours later and checked - all the tests were full.

I OVER HEATED!

First, I started simmering at the pros (some are friends and yes people it's not their fault)

Second, I started boiling at whomever let the cat out of the bag to the pros. The pro and amateur club is a partnership of sorts that keeps this game viable. I wasn't right to be mad here either - I think :)

Third, I blew up being fellow amateur's like myself put on "these" tests. I was ready to toss nearly 10-years of friendships and helping at these events out the door. I sure the heck wasn't going to throw or launch one more duck if club members couldn't play - I will not if this sort of system continues. It makes no sense for me to volunteer to set-up, throw ducks, travel or tear down if I can't play at my own club.

I've cooled off by now but we need to be having some constructive discussions on how to level the playing field.

I do feel club members should have a window of opportunity before all else though...

Robert
 
#105 ·
http://www.retrievertraining.net/for...=1#post1122985
A system ensuring that anyone who wishes to run one dog is able to do so, before anyone gets to run multiple dogs is as close as it gets....
With this system , unless there are 61 or more single dog entries, all those who wish to run (a) their dog in the event get to do so, before anyone gets to run more than one dog.....john
 
#106 ·
Your club could always do the old mail in and random draw.
 
#108 ·
Lots of solutions, probably all have their downsides/unintended consequences. Here's another one:

Have a Master A and a Master B stake, similar to the A/B system in Obedience or the Excellent/Master system in Agility. Master A is for dogs that do not yet have an MH. Master B is for dogs that already have an MH. In one of the tests that filled fast, I counted about 38 dogs that had MH in their name, and I would guess that many of the others also had an MH, but it hadn't been added to the Entry Express name yet.

Could work a couple ways from there. Master A and B could be the same stakes, same judges, run together, with Master A dogs getting priority for entries or Master B could be a separate, more challenging test.

For the Master B dogs, add another $10 or $15 or $20 to the entry fee over Master A. 60 dogs in Master B would be another $600 (or $900 or $1,200) to pay for workers or judges. (I realize that grounds and time could be a problem that can't be solved by raising the entry fees for Master B; in that case, a limit on entries would be needed.) No canceling of entries allowed in Master B, except major medical. I think, by then, you should have a fairly good idea of when your girl will come into heat and, if not, well, them's the breaks running girls.

Another point. Apparently, the fast-closing entries are in the vicinity of the upcoming Master National. I think that problem is created by the MN being the only hunt test title above MH. Create additional titles and I think entries would increase overall and even out across the country. Similar to Agility and Obedience, you could have an MHX (ten qualifying MH runs after achieving the title), MHX2 (20 post-title qualifying runs), etc.
 
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