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Question for upland hunters

12K views 90 replies 13 participants last post by  Tim Mc 
#1 ·
When pheasant hunting do you train your lab to be steady on shot and or flush? Or do you just let him get on it? Up until this point I haven't trained it and I can't complain. Only ever lost one bird since I've had the dog. He gets on any cripples really fast. I started teaching it today with bumper launcher and whistle and he picked it up real quick. With some live birds and a lot of training I could have him steady next season. Not sure if I should though. I got him for duck hunting and trained with smartworks but by accident he became an amazing flushing dog. We mostly pheasant hunt now. Any opinions?, pros and cons to teaching steady on shot/flush?
 
#4 · (Edited)
If I say the dog's name, the dog goes after the bird.
If I blow the whistle, the dog has to sit.

Early on, I want the sit response to flush/shot to be automatic.
I can relax the standard later.
I can't enforce and maintain a standard that I haven't set.

It's easy enough to release the dog on it's name, before the bird is on the ground and running.
It's not easy to stop or steady a dog that has been programmed to break on the flush, or the shot.
 
#5 ·
It's not easy to stop or steady a dog that has been programmed to break on the flush, or the shot.
Sure it is my friend. Whoa or whistle sit. An experienced dog (at least on Pheasant) learns not to chase too far on a 'no shot' hen anyway. A crip bird who runs it's owns escape routes everyday can easily outpace a dog to safety, they do it with fox and coyote all the time. Every second counts.
 
#7 ·
I look at it kind of like swim by.

Over accomplish the objective, ​FIRST and then you are "free" to relinquish control as needed.
A balance can be easily struck, because you have already put the "weight" on the side of the scale that it's most difficult to add it.
 
#12 ·
Believe me, I understand what you are saying.
9 times out of 10, I want the dog on the bird as soon as it hits the ground.

But, 100 times out of 100, I want the dog to stop, when I hit the whistle.

I don't want my dog running over hill and dale, flushing roosters while chasing a bird that was either wing-tipped, or completely missed. I don't want the dog running after a low flying bird, and blocking my shot with his head.

When I want the dog to break, all I have to do, is say one word. His name.
It works. No lie.
 
#13 ·
I'm not going to argue sides here, I can see both points. For me and the pheasant hunting I do I let the dog flush the bird, then I focus my attention on the bird, with my dog in my periphial view. As long as the shot is safe I take it, otherwise I, and my well coached hunting partners, will pass. I really can't remember a low flushing bird that was unsafe for the dog, but it could happen. NAHRA enforces a "sit-to-flush" standard in their senior test so I train for it, but maybe because I'm lazy, I have allowed that standard slip when I'm hunting. It hasn't been a problem for me, but I wouldn't argue with someone who believes sitting to the flush isn't a better option in real hunting.

My dog are 100% on the sit to whistle which I use a lot when I'm hunting.

John
 
#17 ·
It doesn't take many reps of releasing the dog on the shot, for it to regress into breaking again.

They want to break.
Just like they want to cheat.
 
#21 ·
That's Human logic.

It's lost on a dog.

When you think about dog training, it's mostly a case of over-achieving specific objectives, and then letting them regress to meet the situation. Dogs are good at that. They quickly learn what they can get away with in one setting, and can't get away with in another.
 
#22 ·
The dog logic is it wants to catch the bird, that's the fun part. The human logic is "I'll make the dog sit" but let it regress as I chose and introduce variables of behaviour.

Do the math for me since 'control' seems to be your point:

In any given year - how many upland tests would you need to run to equal the number of pheasant hunting flushes you get?
 
#23 ·
In any given year - how many upland tests would you need to run to equal the number of pheasant hunting flushes you get?
They don't have enough Upland tests in a year to even come close.

I'll readily confess that my dogs mostly hunt preserve birds.
And, I'll also add that an HRC Upland test, gets a dog jacked up on bird crack, like nothing else.
 
#24 ·
That's the difference in perspective. Sit-to-flush is great for tests and preserves.

It takes a lot out of a dog tracking a broken-wing wild rooster that will never fly to gun again. The dog HAS to catch it to put it in the bag.
 
#25 ·
The biggest difference between test/preserve birds, and wild birds, as far as it comes to catching them, is that my dogs catch a lot of test/preserve birds, without me expending a shell.
 
#36 ·
I like my dog to be steady to every flush and gun shot. Regardless if its a wild pheasant or grouse. If your worried about runners teach your dog to track birds.
 
#54 ·
How long do you think that Ohio would continue to have pheasants in huntable numbers, if not for stocking efforts, and game farms?
Honestly?
 
#62 ·
I don't know why the numbers are down. But, I know that they are.

Maybe they are making a comeback. I don't know.
But, I don't believe what I read, when I see something else. When I see more wild birds, I'll believe that there are more wild birds.
 
#66 · (Edited)
Driven hunts using flankers, & blockers. Cover where you can't see the dogs. Birds flush & everybody shoots. Party limits.

Not my cup of tea.

Reading the dog & going w/ him to take a runner is the ultimate team sport for me. I like the physicality of it. It lets me share in the legacy of the pre-historic human & his canine companion in working together to bring home a meal.
 
#67 ·
Driven hunts using flankers, & blockers. Cover where you can't see the dogs. Birds flush & everybody shoots. Party limits.

Not my cup of tea.

Reading the dog & going w/ him to take a runner is the ultimate team sport for me. I like the physicality of it. It lets me share in the legacy of the pre-historic human & his canine companion in working together to bring home a meal.
Not my favorite way to hunt either. However it is a common hunting scenario.
Whether it's your cup of tea or not, Having a dog trailing a cripple is not conducive to this common style of hunting
 
#68 ·
I forgot to mention, cringing as 2 or 3 dogs struggle to bring back the same bird & the guy who couldn't hit the ground if he dropped his shotgun yelling "I got him!" :rolleyes:
 
#70 ·
Seems to me the method needs to match the madness. Wide open spaces with thousand acre plots and limited cut-off points require a much different tactic than 50/100 acre plantings. Birds would far prefer to run than fly.

In our small spaces usually surrounded by farm or private property the goal is pinching the bird to flight. That requires a sometimes sophisticated dance with the dog and the bird, becoming your own blocker by spacing yourself relative to the dog and the bird in the best position to force a mistake.

That's harder to do in the big spaces of the Plains.
 
#71 · (Edited)
Here is my experience for ruffed grouse (sorry not pheasants) and I have logged a lot of hours behind a lab in the grouse woods.

I believe Sit to Flush is not critical in the grouse woods. The woods are pretty thick, the birds generally flush, get up quick and are out of sight. The dogs don't tend to chase like they would in an open field. I don't think I have ever fired two shots at one bird in the same flush. It is one of three scenarios. 1) Wild flush and neither dog nor hunter sees the bird. Any follow up is based on locating by sound 2) Flush with missed shot or no shot at all, follow up on the bird 3) Flush and bird shot, retrieve.
 
#72 ·
Here is my experience for ruffed grouse (sorry not pheasants) and I have logged a lot of hours behind a lab in the grouse woods.

I believe Sit to Flush is not critical in the grouse woods. The woods are pretty thick, the birds generally flush, get up quick and are out of site. The dogs don't tend to chase like they would in an open field. I don't think I have ever fired two shots at one bird in the same flush. It is one of three scenarios. 1) Wild flush and neither dog nor hunter sees the bird. Any follow up is based on locating by sound 2) Flush with missed shot or no shot at all, follow up on the bird 1) Flush and bird shot, retrieve.
You forgot to mention that scenario 3 is the least common, i.e. flush and bird shot.
 
#74 ·
Here are a couple of good articles on Illinois Ringnecks. The first one is from 2010 and a lot of good information on the population. Second one is current stats.
http://www.gameandfishmag.com/2010/10/04/hunting_pheasant-hunting_il_aa111604a/

http://www.dnr.illinois.gov/hunting/uplandgame/Documents/AnnualStatusReportPheasant.pdf

Fifteen years ago I could walk ditches and railroad tracks to get wild ringnecks in my area, but today those some places do not produce. When I call the farmers I know, they tell me if the farm has birds or not and whether it is a waste of time. Pheasant Farms should be called dog training, not real hunting but in my area a lot of people think going to the Game Farm is hunting.

I dont see a problem holding a high standard in training and letting the dog slide a bit when the conditions warrant, like your wild bird hunts with incredible cover and/or multiple dogs. Allowing the dog to get loose during hunting season keeps the pro trainers in business retraining them every spring for test/trial season!
 
#82 ·
Thanks for posting the articles. Pretty consistent with what we see in Ohio. I've been at 10-12 roosters bagged a year, 3 times the hen flushes and probably another 10-12 wild rooster flushes. Can't think of any day over the last 10 years we weren't at least 'birdy' 6 times in an outing. None of those game farm refugees or released, rogue birds.

It's work but it's fun dog work. Makes hunting up a duck cripple seem pretty easy from a perseverance perspective.

It's the hunting 'blinds' I have to retrain at season end. Those are sloppy but fit the situation. :D
 
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