Thinking of putting a 6-month old down (aggression)

[Melanie Foster]

I purchased a started Golden bitch last year as a Derby prospect, but she was not what I wanted/needed to be competitive. Very well bred, AFC sire and MH*** dam, but not my cup of tea. I decided to breed her to see what she could produce.

I received a call from a pet owner from her first litter on Friday and with great regrets, he informed me that their family could not keep Lucky (told you it was a pet home) because he has been "resource guarding" and he was worried about the possibility of one of the kids getting hurt. As the conversation progressed, I learned that resource guarding is the new age term for being overprotective of favorite bones and/or toys and that Lucky had started snapping at both children and adults when these items were in his presence. BTW, this dog is a mere 6 months old.

I of course, offered to take the dog back and picked him up today to assess his behavior. I saw that these folks were pretty mild mannered when they came to pick up their pup, and assumed he had most likely been allowed to get away with just a little more than he should have and thus it would be an easy fix and he could be easily rehomed.

Let's cut to the chase. He was fine with my own 6 month old (not related!) and my 8 year old. I started introducing him to taking treats side by side with the other dogs. I gave him a bone and took it out of his mouth. Praised. Gave it back to him. Took it again. No problem. Hmm, where's the issue here?

At one point, he goes into the bathroom and takes tissue out of the trash can. "Oh no, Lucky, c'mon buddy, we don't do that here." And BANG. He tries to play keep away and I take him gently by the collar to show him that doesn't work here. And that's when all hell broke loose. He started thrashing around like there was no tomorrow and I figured it was then and there that we laid down the law and I put him on his back. Now I'm not the strongest girl in the land but I have trained enough dogs (including force fetching) that I know how to hang on to one including keeping a grip on a collar, but when all was said and done, there was blood on the kitchen floor, and though there is nothing requiring stitches, I have several lacerated fingers.

My adrenalin is flowing and it's probably best if I don't mention what I am saying to the dog at this point. I call the pet trainer who has been working with the family and am trying to find out more information about that this dog's history and she is asking me what kind of RESOURCE GUARDING tests I did on the puppies before I sent them to their new homes. Huh? I try and tell her that we breed high level field trial/performance dogs and they are bred for intelligence and biddability and that we have never had a single case of anything like this. I tell her I cannot in good conscience put this dog back out there even in an "experienced trainer's" home or one without children.

She goes on to tell me that the owners had called her first asking if she could help them place the dog because she is involved with rescue and could help find a suitable home for him, yada yada yada, and that under her supervision, this pup had learned to surrender his toys vs guarding, blah blah blah...basically doubting my assessment/experience and giving me a guilt trip for my expressing the possiblity of putting him down.

OK, thanks for listening. Deep breath. Am I not being a responsible breeder for not wanting to place another family in danger? The owners contacted me in good faith with the belief that I would do what's best for the dog. If they hear I have had him put down, they will question their decision.

This is not a legal issue since they chose to surrender the dog to me, it is one of ethics, but to whom am I obliged?

Melanie

[Kristie Wilder]

If it were me...

1) You're obligated to protect others, esp children, from a potentially dangerous dog.
2) I would work with the dog a little longer, even though this first situation would seal a deal for me... I have a REALLY HARD TIME with a six month old puppy exhibiting this behavior REGARDLESS of upbringing. Esp as you describe it -- unpredictable and inconsistent. That's the danger. Even if those folks did an awful job raising the pup, the fact that you got tore up shows that the PUPPY had no regard for your attempt at "domination". I just sent a rescue dog home -- I did rehab and training with him. Owners thought he was "fearful" and to me it was just that he had learned how to control his environment through snarling, growling, lunging. We got that under control. But it was CONSISTENT. I don't like that you tried to do the typical stuff and then the toilet paper was the problem. That would make me very concerned.
3) So next step is to do a FULL HEALTH WORKUP and make sure the puppy is in good health, blood values are normal, hip/elbow x-rays normal...

Of course, that's if you want to go to these lengths...

I hate it, but the fact that it was so vicious and unpredictable would lead me to believe it's an internal wiring problem.

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. I have yet to see a puppy that exhibits this severe sort of behavior have any long-term success dealing with it. This isn't commong for a "puppy" and therefore leads me to believe it's hard-wired and not something that's trainable. Rule out health issues to make sure there isn't another casue...

Good luck.

-K

[Howard N]

but to whom am I obliged

I think you're obliged to yourself. What do you think is best?

I know lots of dogs are salvageable. I also don't believe every dog can be salvaged.

Make the best decision you can and live with it.

[DRAKEHAVEN]

Melanie,

Not meant to be a shot at you.

An Alpha Roll is about the last thing you should do to a dog when it displays "possession" issues.
If the dog won't give you a kleenex, he sure ain't gonna "submit" to you. A safer more effective approach might have been, REMAIN CALM, NO EMOTION, put a slip lead over the dog and relieve him of gravity, until his tounge takes a nice shade of blue, calmly put him back to earth and take "YOUR" object.

Go to the leerburg site , Ed has a wealth of knowledge on aggresion.

I had a UDX SCH I Boxer female who was possessive till the day she died. Wonderful dog with 1 fault. There was no arbitration with her on objects. Give it to me or ya pay the price.

John

[Pepper Dawg]

I've had half a dozen Golden's since the mid-60's and have never had one like that. Seems like an awful lot of aggression for a six mo old puppy! Regardless, your obligation is to make the call that in your judgement is best for the dog and other people. Has the dog been neutered yet? I have heard that neutering can take some of the "territorial aggression" out of a mature dog. IMHO, if he has faulty wiring, I'd pull the plug! Sounds harsh but so is being attacked and bitten!

[Melanie Foster]

John,

No offense taken, and thank you to everyone for your comments. My post was long enough and I did not mention that I did um...gently suspend the youngster by his collar before attempting to turn him over.

One last piece of information. When I first brought his dam home, she attempted to grab a toy that was up on a table. I said NO and the 12-year old matriarch proceeded to deliver her a serious lecture about the rules in the house (just barking, it made me laugh at first). Said dam turns around and grabs hold of matriarch's neck and would not let go until I grabbed a broom and beat her off of her.

Deep breath again. I thought that was an issue of being a kennel dog and not understanding pack order. Now I seriously wonder.

Next day she went to live with the next door neighbor. Next on the list is a spay.

I'm tending to think towards bad wiring as Kristie mentioned. I used that exact terminology when talking with the owner this morning, but I doubt he really understood what I was saying.

Sorry about any typos and dumb grammar mistakes. This is such a new one for me, I am a little beside myself.

Thanks everyone,

Melanie

[2-Dogs]

Originally Posted by Melanie Foster

I purchased a started Golden bitch last year as a Derby prospect, but she was not what I wanted/needed to be competitive. Very well bred, AFC sire and MH*** dam, but not my cup of tea. I decided to breed her to see what she could produce.


Melanie

...the spawn of Satan?

[Teri]

Hi Melanie

Tough situation.

I have worked with a several dogs who sound similar--3 have turned out successfully....a couple were euthanized or I sent them home stating they were beyond my abilities.

A 6 mo old Lab who had bitten the other dog in the house as well as broken the skin on all 4 people in the house; failed 2 obedience trainers. Owners contacted me as a final option before euthanizing. I expected to confirm that the dog needed to be put down. After 6 weeks he was a completely different dog...4 yrs later he is still a mushy, soft, snuggler. The owners still swear I switched dogs on them. He boards for a month every summer with me.

A 1yr old Golden who had almost killed another dog in the house and tried to bite the owner who is also a dog trainer by profession. Dog was to be sent back to breeder but I was asked to evaluate dog. Two years later dog is loose in the house with the other dogs; sleeps on owners bed; runs agility and the owner adores the dog. Absolutely no issues of aggression.

In the above cases the dogs had learned to use their mouth and voice to intimidate and get what they want. The Golden's owner did nothing but use food to bribe good behavior or to trade for toys. More importantly neither dog was truly aggressive, just pushy and learned to get what they want combined with no respect for the owners.

I would put the dog in serious Ruff Love ( susan garrett) or NILIF-type program. Would use a cloth muzzle for a lot of training and anytime you even think the dog will object--I like the cloth muzzles both for protecting me, but also because they can really take control away from the dog and sort of burst their bubble. Once I got good obedience and control, and if I thought I could do it without getting bit, I would FF the dog. I often FF rescue dogs I work with or even super bratty pet dogs as it is so black & white for teaching cause & effect; need for effort; consequences; dealing with temper tantrums. With a muzzle on I would make sure dog will let me manhandle it; make it lie on his back using my outstretched legs for support. I just sent home a 5 mo old FT bred lab ( in pet home) who would try to bite if you did any sort of restraint; nails; lie on back...the muzzle made a big difference and after a couple of major fits the dog gave in and was an angel.

All that said, the dogs who were successful were not truly, in my opinion, aggressive even though their behavior fit under the aggression category. They were spoiled, pushy brats who used their teeth. The owners had no respect from the dog...and had major relationship issues. I have had some dogs who I felt were wired wrong and were scary, where it was more than just challenging me using teeth. The rescues were euthanized; the one in a pet home was sent home with recommendations of another trainer and possible euthanasia. He was out of my league; was definitely aggressive; was a 6 month old Lab; had owners who were in total denial and I felt even IF I could get the dog better the owners were not equipped to make the changes necessary. I have seen some pretty scary dogs turn into angels...and some dogs with initially fairly benign appearing issues need to be put down.

Given what you have said about the behavior; previous training and the mother, I do not think putting the dog down is unreasonable. Personally, I would work with the dog for a couple of weeks and re-evaluate. However my standards remain high--if I cant get the dog back to where I TRULY trust it, I wont place it. I feel that IF the dog is truly aggressive you will likely never get it trustworthy. If I have any doubt...I will euthanize.

It is 3 am and I cant sleep so hope the post makes some sense and forgive any errors.

Teri Jakob

[D1]

Originally Posted by DRAKEHAVEN

put a slip lead over the dog and relieve him of gravity, until his tounge takes a nice shade of blue, calmly put him back to earth and take "YOUR" object.

something about a lack of oxygen that will bring an animal to thier senses.....lololol

[Carol]

Hi Melanie,
I also had to put down a 6 month old for aggression. He was a Jekyll/Hyde dog, one minute the sweetest most cuddly dog and the next growling, snarling and biting anyone or anything within reach. We even got kicked out of puppy kindergarten for agressive behavior. I tried everything, contacted professional trainers and had him neutered, all to no avail. My last hope was to take him to Dr. Patricia McConnell a well known animal behaviorist. Her evaluation of the dog was that his behavior was so far off the scale of normal that he had some kind of neurological problem. It wasn't something that was going to be trained out of him and unlikely one that could be medically controlled. For safety and sanity reasons, we had him put down. It was a hard thing to do, but the right one in our case. You need to do what you think is right.