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My dog is a LIAR ! Initial lines on blinds?

8K views 35 replies 29 participants last post by  BJGatley 
#1 ·
Had a issue that pops up every now and then, but not all the time ! But it does concern me, and not sure if there is a fix or something she will eventually work through ?

We are transitioning to cold blinds, and had this issue show up once again this morning! I go through my blind sequence, make sure she is lined up with tail, spine, head and eyes! She seems to be locked on, or locked as good as I would expect a dog transitioning to cold blinds (Not trying to nit pick over great lines at this point) But seems to me she is telling me she has her "picture" I kick her off and she will run straight for 5 or 10 yards and then veer left or right !

My fix at this point has just been a quick whistle sit, and a cast to get her back on line, and she will usually take a good cast back on line, but will usually start to veer off in the direction she veered on the initial line.

I am making sure (without taking to much time nit picking on lining her up) that she and " I " are lined up but seems she's telling me one direction, and then takes another !

Her spine and head does not move, and I have started in the last 3 weeks to really pay attention to her eyes, and she seems to give no indication that when the veer off line does occur that she is keyed on anything else other than the line she is indicating to me !

Not sure if this is a possible bad habit that may be arising, or is this just an issue that shows up in alot of other dogs starting cold blinds ? Just don't want this to get out of hand, or become a habit if it's something I can correct !

And yes I want to say again cause I know this will be a response! (I am making 100% sure that she is lined up Tail, Spine, Head, and Eyes) unless she's looking cross eyed her eyes are peering forward!
 
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#3 ·
I'm interested in answers here too. Having similar issues with my girl. I have always thought she is straight but before being asked I didn't pay "as" close attention. Now I am. My girl veers left too.

Hope there are lots of good thoughts.
 
#4 ·
If she is constantly doing it at about the same distance .....maybe set your line up with "goal posts" at roughly the distance that she veers off line . 2 trees with a distance between them come to mind. This way she has to pick 1 of 3 slots and not create her own line at random. If you have been recalling her a lot for the lies , she's likely popping from anticipating a recall. Just thoughts that crossed my mind when I read your post , maybe a good thought maybe not.
 
#5 ·
Have you done wagon wheel yet? If so then she should understand the "go as sent" principle. If not, do it. As for transitioning to cold blinds this can be a little tricky and is really where you learn to read the dog and have to make some quick decisions as the trainer to decide what is fair to the dog. You have to ask yourself things like "is it suction to another mark or blind that is causing this problem?" or, "is it a factor that is causing her to deviate from her lines?" If it is either one of these then remove them or use a "show me" type blind style for a while to make sure the dog is fully aware of the destination and the line is the only thing that you are correcting. The standard answer is to call back for a poor initial line however this can be as detrimental to your dog as any other correction if the proper foundation has not been set.
 
#6 ·
Ok. This is going to blow some minds. Don't run cold blinds. Yep, can only imagine what responses this will cause. Always run at a fence post. White, orange, black, doesn't matter. This will build the confidence in the dog that there's something out there. Had a VERY reputable training in okla tell me this. Stretch them out, we are running 300 yd+ blinds. My comment when I was told this was " when you get to the game there might not be a post". The pro smiled and said...."in the dogs mind there's suppose to be :)". This method of t raining is being widely used in ne okla. If you would have been at Three Rivers training day last Saturday you could have seen the benefits.
 
#7 ·
I am curious how old your dog is? And what you have done prior to this stage.
Popping is a confidence issue. She is saying where should I go???
And you can't expect them to go straight at first. Correct to put her back on line like you are doing and if she doesn't take your cast you move up with her.
I would try to let her run as far out as she can go and keep her momentum up. Stopping her creates more confusion and pops. IMO
Also I think there is a ratio cold blinds to known blinds that you run at first so you don't over do it.
Tony mentioned wagon wheels and I agree with him; you should do this which is very important to really have the dog understand team work at the line and look out to where you want her to go. There are other benefits to WW. IMO
 
#8 ·
So you are "transitioning to cold blinds" and not getting good initial lines? Nothing unusual about that, at this point it is much more about going somewhere when sent, stopping, and changing directions when cast. After a few hundred blinds you can start to worry about initial line.
 
#14 ·
So you are "transitioning to cold blinds" and not getting good initial lines? Nothing unusual about that, at this point it is much more about going somewhere when sent, stopping, and changing directions when cast. After a few hundred blinds you can start to worry about initial line.
even though we run very few "cold blinds" I have to agree with Dr A on this subject...by continually stopping the dog at 10 yds not only do you break down the momentum you are setting yourself up for a potential "pop"....I know from personal experience that Sophie would look for a correction at a fairly consistent yardage,once she realized she wasnt going to get a correction at that distance she would proceed to the task at hand..It took some work but once we got past that notion she turned out to be a very nice lining dog..

IMO I would go for momentum first and try the finer lines and immediate correction at a later date
 
#9 ·
Gil,

I love your comment. I wasn't at the last training day for Three Rivers, but know exactly what you are talking about. I haven't run a cold blind in over a year. I have a 2 1/2 year old YLM that will hopefully complete his HRCH in the fall. Working on stretching him out and creating high confidence in our blinds. I also like to run to a post/marker set-up in front/behind/near a natural landmark (ie tree sapling, brush pile, thicket etc) which is a common practice at HT in AKC and HRC.
 
#24 ·
:). Kinda like going over to the dark side. And placement .... exactly! Today it was 2 bumpers that floated off the stake into a channel (too lazy to walk around the pond and missed). Got to the post, sit, angle back right... " what he says" tap, angle back right...well look here!
 
#10 ·
Provided you have followed a good program to this point, I am want to quote Lardy and say "that's the way cold blinds go". Believe me it will get better. One day you will say, dang she's taking good initial lines.

This has been my experience with Rowdy. I used to get frustrated with him over this. Not anymore. At hunt test the judges have been real complimentary about his lines.
 
#11 ·
Yes I have done wagon wheel 2 to 3 times a week, I have followed Smart works close, and have also got influence from Lardy, Fowl Dawgs, and a Pro trainer in Dyersburg, TN that I have trained with a couple times, and of course she never does it then!

I have followed the system close, all the way through, and stay in contact almost weekly with the trainer I know. Just looking for opinions from others! Not looking for a fix, just looking for suggestions to make me a better trainer ! I am not losing sleep over this, Just kinda makes me wonder what this little gal is thinking, or seeing that is causing her to do this at times???

She's giving me every indication she is "locked" and 98 % of the time she tells me the truth, it's just those few times she has done this kinda makes me scratch my head, and wonder what the HE!! she is thinking, or seeing !

Thanks for the suggestions so far ! Oh and she is 18 months old.
 
#12 ·
I don't have anything to add to what's been said by people way more knowledgeable than I. But I train with a number of folks who have litter mates from the same super-powered litter, all of these folks are good trainers with good resources. And the way you're describing your dog's initial lines pretty much is what these young dogs were doing at that stage. Sounds pretty normal to me.
 
#13 ·
My usually reliable, and honest, pup veered off on a Q blind and a battle of will ensued. As I was walking back to the truck I said to a local pro who was watching intently, "The SOB lied to me." W/O missing a beat she said "Maybe you just have to learn how to read him better." Talk about a smack-down! But she was right. His "tell" when he's got the picture is to arch his eyebrows just a tad. Once I realised that I could see that all the parts might be lined up but not necessarily connected to his brain. Until the eyebrows twitched I had about an 75% chance of getting the right line. Trick is knowing when that's close enough or if I had to keep working him to get the real picture.
I agree with the suggestion to go back to sight blinds. See if you can find that little "tell" that let's you know he's got the picture.
This is a drill an experienced am trainer showed me that's been a big help to the dog and his handler. It's something you should not do until pup is solid on advanced wagon wheel.
3 white stakes about 20' apart at say 35 yds with a pile at each. Run r to l, then l to r. As pup progresses stretch it out. Goal is to have pup line each blind at least 50% of the time. You'll eventually get to 250+ yds. Pup learns to drive with confidence. You learn how to time your handles at distance. We may do this drill a coupe of times a week at 325 yds w/ orange stakes. (You need to know where the piles are!) Then revisit once a month.

Good luck.
 
#15 ·
Not to be nitpicky with you, and I haven't read all the other post, but that's not exactly what we call lying to you. Lying would be giving you the look you are working her on than immediately going where she wanted to go all along. If she is starting off correctly then veering off line, even within 5-10 yards (15-30 feet) that is caving to a factor. Actually I think you handled it perfectly by handling back on line. With a low momentum sometimes popping dog, the worst thing would be a recall and resend, you didn't do that, you handled which is good.

Pattern blinds and marked blinds are good for dogs just transitioning to cold blinds. The good news for you is that your dog is going on these first cold blinds, that's a big step into the unknown for these young dogs. I might just keep the momentum up by doing what you are doing. You can also plan a number of bumpers out there in a fan pattern so she has success even if it's not the one you had planned for her. I think the point at this stage is to get her comfortable leaving the line in a cold blind situation with good momentum, after that you can tighter her up. Avoid obvious factors fort a while then work on the factors one by one in a black and white, easy to understand manner.

John
 
#16 ·
Do some long distance Lining Drills using 12" traffic cones painted white with white bumpers placed 2' in front of cones. Search this forum for old posts by me and you'll find diagrams and instructions on how to do it. Do these dirlls After you have dog dialed in on wagon wheel using cones.
If you search using words like: white, cones you might find the old threads.
Briefly, imagine setting up a triple with short, medium and long stations. Use those spots to place your cones but rather than only 3 place 9 or 12 cones out in the field within the same tiangle you would normally set up a triple or quad so to speak. Some short some with line tight to another or between 2 etc etc..
please find prior posts for more.
cheers..
 
#23 ·
I went and found the thread because I wanted to know more. Thanks Breck.
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?93033
.
right, thanks for finding the thread Dave. Good idea to read comments Randy wrote. There are other related threads if you look
There are several things that need to be rock solid before you do the long distance lining drills. Starts in the Yard. Dog must move with you only when you move and ideally line himself up with where ever your dog side foot is pointed. (many don't subscribe to this method but if you train your dog this way lots can be gained and if you run into trouble you have some seriously good tools to address them. Much more to the program than simply getting dog to lineup with you..................
Ask Randy for more info if interested.
cheers............
 
#18 ·
You've gotten some good suggestions. I just started
cold blinds and getting what you are with 2 12 month olds.
Seeing improvement daily.
I would take the time to read starting cold blinds by Danny Farmer.
You can find it on his website after clicking on training tips.
There is other good information there as well.
Good Luck!
www.dannyfarmer.com
 
#19 ·
While I'm still convinced my dogs lie about things like, oh, having an illicit pork chop in a mouth, or whether they're going to run around to the front of the yard to eat cat poop, one of the top 2 or 3 pieces of advice I got as a retriever trainer is "Dogs don't lie."

They want to do the right thing. They want the bird. They're not saying "I'm going to tell you I am going to somewhere other than where my retrieve is."

I actually don't know if this is the case (could they lie about an initial line? well? maybe? they're pretty darn smart, they are definitely souls with wills and agendas!

But! Once I just accepted it for all practical purposes, and assumed it was a communication error that was my responsibility, my mindset totally changed and I really began to work with my dog.
 
#21 ·
I think you need to distinguish between the body language you have taught the dog to display, and the concept in her mind of what she's supposed to be doing. You've got a good response from her on the first bit and a poor one on the second because she doesn't know whats expected of her.

So in no way is the dog "lying", quite the opposite, she's telling you the blunt truth "You haven't taught me well enough". Once you've grasped that you can go forward with the suggestions the other guys have made.

In teaching the concept of a dead cold completely un-cued blind (no shot, no cones, posts, and in new terrain) I like to make use of a rise in the ground just a few yards from the send out spot, that conceals the dummy from the dog's level of sight. Once it breasts the rise, it sees the white dummy standing out like a beacon giving a great addition to momentum.

Eug
 
#25 ·
The most most important concept that a dog has to learn in running cold blinds is believing in the handler. This has to be done through lots of blinds, watching a dog that locks on the line after his cue is liking watching a runner right before the gun goes off. Fighting factors & handling skills are taught, trust is built by practice.
 
#26 ·
It seems some do sight blinds for momentum, cold blinds for handling. Do many do both throughout dogs career? I have been taught that dogs learn to handle by running cold blinds. They may start out slower (less momentum) as they learn, but catch up as they gain experience. I do walkout blinds with my dogs, but tend not to put out visible markers, even for the young ones. As long as they head in the general direction I want, I'm pleased.

Never thought about using white cones for wagon wheel. That would certainly make the picture clearer in the beginning. That tight lining stuff, even with no collar pressure tends to unnerve my dogs and they start getting buggy. I love all the ideas folks throw out. Makes me think about the training process a bit more.

Dawn
 
#28 ·
I agree with what Ed,,, Buzz,,, and Jollydog told you.

Sounds pretty common for a dog just starting cold blinds.
Dont mess with a young dog at the line. Sit him ,,put your hand down,and say "back"..Then handle as needed. (No collar used unless he doesnt "Sit")

Dog doesnt like to be handled,, and eventually the line will straighten..... It WILL!!

The link Jollydog gave to you is excellent!
 
#29 ·
Are you running your cold blinds on "fresh" grounds?
You've got to create trust that where you're pointing the dog, she's going to find something if she heads out "there".
If you're on grounds where you train regularly, she might be taking off for a place where she's found something before since she hasn't made the connection between what lining, cold blinds and "dead bird/back" (or whatever you command) are all about.
 
#30 ·
It seems like you worried about a dog that doesn't carry a line not about a dog that takes the wrong line. Carrying a line has to be learned most do this with pattern blind etc. as they have an end goal and the dog absolutely knows where they should go, thus you can correct the line. Once you transition to cold blinds, we hope the confidence and habit carries over. However if you want her to carry lines, your not helping by stopping and casting her. Instead you might try stopping her bring her back, telling her NO-correcting her and resending until she carries the line you want her to.
 
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