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improving water blinds

9K views 33 replies 13 participants last post by  RookieTrainer 
#1 ·
Im wanting to get my 18 month old running better water blinds she runs great land blinds but we havent gotten to put as much time in on water as id like. Weve done channel blinds and some cheating singles did walkaround blinds twicefollowiing trt 2nd edition ik thinking we need to run lots of tuneup drills to get her handling on water more solid what do yall think?
 
#4 ·
You can't go wrong with doing more walk around blinds and tune up blinds...I use tune up blinds to work on one particular aspect of a blind, as in by the point or over, angle ins and outs...multiple times ...Walk a rounds can be any thing, parallel shore , by, over and any combination, straight or angle entries, usually no set concept to them....Steve S
 
#6 ·
I think you are on the right track.( you are moving a little to fast for her) I would go back to your basic 40 yard force to pile, ( water ) making sure that your pile is marked good ( something white ) and run it as a pattern blind first.After she is running them with confidence add in the stop and left and right backs. When she done with that. then I would move to the next step on my flow chart.

You should not need more then a 30 to 40 yard over. If she get out of the area more then that, you have made a handling mistake.
 
#10 ·
She has no problem going shes more just like not knowing if shes going the direction I want . Shes done some reentries on walk around blinds and has no hesitance towards that . She ran pattern blinds on water when she was at pros back in march. Im not saying that I dont need to do them again. For example when I said want her to take longer cast say I give her a left angle back she may take it and carry a long ways or she may take and then straighten right back up I hope I make semse typing on a new cell phone with extra sensitive keys
 
#12 ·
Jerrod,

What specific steps of training did you do to get to this current point? That's very important to know.

Evan
 
#13 ·
She was at pro for 6 months were she did ob,ff,cc,ftp,t work, pattern blinds on land and water then I brought her home and re did swimby, pattern blinds, blind drills, pattern blinds with divetsions, cold land blinds, done some simpe cheating singles, taught and cold chsnnel blinds did some more of those this morning cold, did some walk around blinds like twice she doesnt have a bad water attitude in my opinion just some times takes a good cast and sometimes takes cast but then goes right back to original line, ive done most of the blind work myself my pro isnt to worried about her now that shes home she runs beautiful land blimds out to 250 or 300 yards I kinda think we just need more water time
 
#14 ·
This being said, I would drop back and do some pattern work for a session. This would let me know if she is confused or just giving me the paw.

I also have to remind myself,( My dogs are not machines) after foundation training and I am running cold I do not look for perfection. I look more at working attitude and drive.
 
#15 · (Edited)
My dog is with a pro right now working on a similar issue on land. He says my dog's water blinds are actually a little better because the water slows him down a little.

Anyway, this dog has drive, confidence, and momentum out the wazoo, and he generally takes good initial lines, but he tends to scallop back on angle casts and roll back after a varying distance on overs. When I went over and worked with him last week, he was only getting angle backs and being required to go across the line to the blind at least once and preferably twice on his way out there.

What my pro had figured out was that I had gotten too caught up in a straight line to the blind on pattern blinds, and I had let him get off line, given him on over back to the line, and then given him a straight back to the blind. Lather, rinse, repeat. He was correct.

What I should have done with this dog was to give him casts and let him carry them back across the line for a good ways to get him to understand that when he hears the cue "dead bird" then he needs to hand me the reins right there. I didn't realize that, so my dog takes a cast about as far as I was normally handling him back to the line and then rolls back on an over, for example. I know, it made perfect sense to me too about 3 seconds after the pro explained it. Remember too that until they get out there to see a blind pole or flag they don't know where the blind is anyway. You really want them depending on your handling and just going where you tell them to go.

The cure is that the dog is only getting angle backs for the time being on cold blinds, and he needs to cross the line to the blind at least once on his way out and preferably twice. He gets one non-cast (maybe) before he starts getting corrections for not taking the proper cast. I would note as well here that the pro thought I had lied to him about putting my dog through 8-handed casting (apparently the field work was that bad) but the dog did about two days of it without making a mistake, so it is clear that he understands the casts in the yard. My screw-up has hindered him from making the transition to the field with that.

One more thing: my pro told me I have a dog that should NEVER be allowed to line a blind. Apparently I get high marks for drive, confidence, and momentum and demerits for control.

If you recognize your dog in my description above and if you completed 8-handed casting and pattern blinds close to the way I did it, then you might try just giving angle backs and letting her carry casts further when she gets them right. Of course, this will also involve corrections when she scallops and a recast.

Good luck. I never knew you had to be such a glutton for punishment to play the dog games.
 
#18 ·
Yes evan there land blinds im not saying we alway run blinds that far normally I setup 2 or 3 different cold blinds that are somewhat the same factor wise but arent repeating the exact blind shes doing very good on land blinds but weve spent more time on it than water blinds and they weren't awesome at fitst either of course that why im thinking we probably just need to run more in the water and get the bugs worked out and maybe use a little pressure I havent used any pressure on water blinds yet what do you think im all ears and am truly listening to everyone
 
#21 ·
I really think its her just giving me the paw[/QUOT

Truthseeker said ,running cold don't look for perfection ...agree totally....
Evan mentioned lack of effort...Some times this is hard to discern when the dog is not confident in it's new learning's...But it is possible, if so use pressure as he said...
Gooser said to run more blinds in big water and longer distances ...agree here too...As he said concentrate on getting the cast ....
It looks like you have gotten good advice so far...Talk things over with the pro that did the initial training and get his advise and then give it a try...Steve S
 
#20 ·
My opinion.
This is working well for me.

run more blinds in Big Water and long distances.

Concentrate on getting the cast you gave.

Once they refuse or cave, forget the blind and work on the cast.
 
#28 ·
This too is what I am working on. Getting the cast I gave. I am also learning to use pressure wisely after refusal or digging back as some say. And these blinds are in big water. and much longer distances with factors than we have worked on before. We balance it with a shorter blind and marks. It is certainly a different way than I did blinds in HRC! IMO
 
#24 ·
Ive got to were I enjoy training so much now that I dont know if ill use a pro again. It Is what it is now ive got to work through it without him but I do have a really good friend that works for a great pro up north and helps talk me through problems as best as he can from another state
 
#25 ·
Some thoughts that may help.

Without seeing your dog or the blinds you run I don't get the impression that you have a particular problem holding her back. Remember she's young and I wouldn't try to do real technical blinds at this age. Your question about how to improve your blinds is a good one and its a question that I feel is not well covered or at least apparent in training videos. The videos give you drills to transition to cold blinds but once your running cold blinds progression in training boils down to being able o design training blinds that challenge your dog enough to learn but are not so hard that they lead to lots of corrections and poor attitude. It's not always easy and requires reading your water and factors and taking them into account as you design your training setup.

I have tried to make initial cold blinds relatively factor free. Put several blinds at edge of water and simply swim across the pond. Wind at your back, no shoreline to invite cheating,clean entry and hopefully just a few casts to get the bumper. Do at least 3 blinds each session and you should see improved attitude each blind. This type of 3 peat blind can be built upon as you can keep backing up with longer and longer entries.

Gradually you can add a single factor. This would be similar to above but now you might run close to a shoreline with 3 blinds at different angles. You might add getting on and off a single obvious point. You might repeat blinds in different places that have an obvious picture like a clean channel. Theses single factor blinds can be built on or made more challenging by adding a crosswind blowing toward the point so your cast off into water is into the wind, or backing up so their entry is longer. These would be simple Q level water blinds but can still be fairly long.

Past this point if you want to go more advanced then you incorporate more and more factors working together to make it harder for the dog to do the blind correctly. This could be done by taking your intermediate level blind with a single point and scenting the point with duck feathers, add a strong crosswind, add a dry shot on land, add a no see um entry, add a poison bird on land, make your point a non obvious "lazy" point, etc.

Whether you add these factors into your blind design depends how he does with the simple concepts. You keep your standards the same. Stop on the whistle and change direction on each cast. If you are requiring many casts, many corrections, or seeing poor attitude then simplify back to the simpler blind design.

I have not had luck with repeating the same blind or doing patterns. I think the dog learns not to take and carry casts if they know where they are going from the outset

I also think the best way to get better at blinds is not in any one drill, but comes from running lots of blinds at the right level of difficulty

Hope this makes sense.....

Bill
 
#26 ·
Great post Bill Billlups, and very timely for me. My hardest bad habit to overcome is adding difficulty to soon. Now that I have a dog that really needs confidence building it is more important than ever. I have wide water, but not technical available to me. I am going to stick with the simple swims across the pond three times or more. I almost got in trouble yesterday asking him to run 50 yards beyond the waters edge. He should have had his reward just by arriving at the other side in the right place! Thanks for the reminder, might pin it to my forehead.:cool:
 
#33 ·
I got a very good PM in response to my post above that makes me think I need to add a couple things.

First, I cannot stress enough that my dog will take a good initial line most of the time, which further convinces him that he knows where it is, which then tells him to go independent. My take on my pro's advice is that when I see that my dog is committed to a location like the finger in my earlier post, that is when he is likely to go independent and therefore is the time when, for teaching purposes, he needs to be stopped and directed to a different location. In fact, when we were running this blind, the pro basically said to me "Now he's committed to that point, so let's see if we can cast him off." I think it is all about changing my dog's mindset from "I know where it is and I got it" to "I will go wherever you tell me to go." The good news is that it seems to be working. His whistle sit is getting much better, which I also attribute to more of a "you have the wheel" attitude on his part.

I would also say that the pro giving me this advice is a very reputable FT pro, if that helps. I consider myself very lucky to have had his help with this dog, who was (and probably still is) too much dog for this rookie to handle. Ask fishduck or Lonnie about the struggles they have seen, heard about, and spent a lot of time on the phone helping with on this dog and handler team.

Hope this helps a little.
 
#34 ·
Thought some of you might enjoy the epitaph.

We ran Senior at the Cattle Ranch on Sunday. We were the last dog (#13!), and when I came in from throwing birds I told the gunner on the flyer station I didn't know what would happen but it would be memorable. Famous last words. I told the judges the same thing.

He lined up OK on the marks. He was ready to go on the flyer to say the least, and he took the short swim, charged out of he water and up the hill, and pinned it. He came back and I even remembered to leave the bird in his mouth while I lined him up for the memory bird. I sent him, and I almost handled him but I decided to trust him and he rewarded me by pinning that one. The judges are getting on me for sandbagging them. I tell them to wait on the blind for the real comedy.

He takes a good line and starts to fade right as most of the other dogs had. I gave him a left back which he took but then started to fade again. I gave him the same cast with a step to the left, and he took it like a champ and went straight to he bird. The judges said it was a good job. I was really proud that all our work was paying off.

Then the very nice judge said you have been sandbagging us, and the next thing you are going to tell me is that he is shaky on the honor. About 120 seconds later I was yelling "No, here" and putting the lead on my dog. So much for doing really well on the test.

But our casting pointers seemed to help, so there's that. And he did stop after he broke, so there was no race to the bird. Making lemonade here folks.
 
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