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FT Goldens then and now =Barty?

41K views 174 replies 39 participants last post by  Diane Brunelle 
#1 · (Edited)
The Lab thread got me thinking of this. It seems most of the current great FT Goldens are closely or not too distantly descended from Holway Barty or Topbrass Cotton (son of Barty) on both sides.

Are current FC AFC Goldens that much different from Barty, the son of two English FTCH? I know English trial standards have changed as well as US standards, but the genes of Barty or Cotton can't be that much different from current FT Goldens. Or do you think they are? If not, perhaps we should help the breed pool on both sides of the pond by breeding US to UK.

Thoughts? Reflections on current FT Goldens vs Past?
 
#3 · (Edited)
Holway Stubbledown Jolly was a import in the late 1950's owned by Tom Lucas. He was a trial dog. I bredto his son Jolly Again of ouimette he was a field trial dog. I then had a Barty bitch bred four times . Her field line went back to the old Stilrovin lines. In recent years there have been other attempts from across the pond, none have really took? There are some very knowledgable folks that frequent this forum you might bring them forth with this thread! It's got potential to over shadow those black rascals!
 
#5 ·
Would be great reading.. Hope this thread does take off! Agree, great post, Earl :)

Judy
 
#6 ·
Jennifer.I`m gonna post some pics soon.Dad ran a golden back in the early 70`sFC,Bonnybrookes tuff and a half....this little guy was only about 45 lbs and a ball of fire and not tuff like all the good ones were back then.Some of the older guys know what I mean by tuff.I`ll get his pedigree also.He also won the Gold Whistle in canada being I believe the first golden to do that.When he was runing Andy (call name) the flood gates opened up and we were loaded up with goldens for a while,but never had anything like him. Jim
 
#8 ·
Jolly again of Ouillmette call name was Tuffy..Bonnie Brooks was Dick Kerns kennel name trained with him often. There are a number of very talented dogs from that line. It is a English line bred off of Tuffy, pre Barty. There was some HD in those lines too. Now get Wayne Anderson involved with the Minnesota Mafia bunch, he is on this forum along with Mickey Strandberg and the Midwest Goldens history will come out of the closet. Wayne and Mickey quit lurking!
 
#7 · (Edited)
I had a Barty grandson that I wanted to trial. He was a handful but an obedience class favorite. I do have flattering photos that I will try to post. Unfortunately, certain domestic issues prevented me from entering the field trial world. (Several understand, I'm sure.) A lot of dog with a lot of go. Since then that is all that I want.


My dog,Twin Branch Bayside Dasher, call name Dasher.
 
#9 ·
Dick Kerns!!!Yea......man Earl you and Bon are in a class of your own on pedigrees!! Jim
 
#10 ·
Get the Canuckiller going too! Lots of old Golden folk need to be outed from the Midwest. Many started in Goldens and now are just remembered by the black rascals (and don't mean River Oaks Rascal or Rays Rascal). This where it all started, Barrington iilinois, Wadsworth, Illinois, Tri State in Minnesota, Wisconsin Amateur, St. Louis,Mo., somemof the oldest clubs in the country, often dominated by Great Goldens. Frisbie, Weber, Dick Sampson, Billy Voight, Jim's dad from the Ohio crew, lets here it from the Midwest Mecca.
 
#11 ·
Earl correct me if I`m wrong but most of the decent ones we had could get aggressive under pressure,have only had a few in here lately but am still seein it!!!!
 
#15 ·
Unfortunately yes, the older lines were tough no nonsense dogs that were not afraid of taking you on and don't mean fear bitting! I was a military police service dog trainer and handler, old school dogs, swung my share of them and you know what I mean. Been bitten my share of times, worse bites got were from training the sweet gentle Goldens, bitches were the worse. That and the e collar has mostly diminished along with better breeding that type of behavior in all of the retriever breeds in my opinion.
 
#13 · (Edited)
My only brush with Goldens spoiled me because he was a great dog...I got to see Dual Ch AFC Tigathoes Funky Farquar up close and personal (as in he lived with the family in College Station)..first time I saw him he slept overnight with us in Southern Calif..he would have been the penultimate chick magnet if I had been a little quicker, he was that good looking, big, bold and was a marking sonofagun...obviously since he won the National Derby Championship in '73...but he and his O/H couldnt run blinds to save their lives, until they met Clint...he had only a single placement when running the big stakes. Clint taught Quar and Dottie how to run sight blinds, and nothing but sight blinds, only threw him a mark here and there because he would pin everything anyhow..within 3 months Quar was running good blinds, and took a second in the Open in Phoenix in Feb '75, he and Dottie started finishing trials and placing highlighted by a big win in the Open in No Florida that fall...I think Quar ended up with 52 AA points in his career, qualified for two or three nationals...the only shame was that wasnt a deeper pool of quality dams to breed him to..

He was a heck of a good boy, if I ever get my hands on the family archives of pictures buried deep in an Austin garage I will scan and post the pics of him, albeit most are in B/W
 
#17 ·
Man you and me both!!!Every scar on my hand is from a golden,except one bad one from a Bigstone lab....Jim
 
#24 ·
Earl,dad had another he ran it was mrs strouds,believe it was FC too? late 70`s early 80`s ?
 
#28 ·
I am getting old I will have to think about it thats East Coast stuff and I am a homeboy Midwest guy. Not many even know me outside this circuit. I was small potatoes, still am, compared to many in that period, just have a lot of useless information in my head and have rubbed elbows with some of the near great. Had more success in the late 1980's on with some nice black dogs. Many only know me as a Lab guy or the bitch Lab guy. I have been outed, just trying to get more accomplished Golden breeders, trainers, etc to come forward it's good for the sport!
 
#33 ·
This is wonderful! Thanks for the great discussion. Got a rare opportunity to sleep in this morning on the west coast, and woke up to this history lesson!

Judy, thanks for posting the links to K9 data - unfortunately, my old lap top is not cooperating with the links, but should be able to see them tomorrow at work. Hope you survive the snow storm!!

So do you all think Barty changed the gene pool significantly from what it was before Barty? Obviously, he and Cotton are prolific producers and significant in the gene pool in that way, but what are your thoughts line wise. Or is that an impossible thing to know. Wonder if he was a quirk from the English line or a typical dog. Funny that June Atkinson let him go, wasn't he an older pup when Barbara Howard got him. Indicating that maybe June held on to him with hopes of a good dog - or, he was a left over. Not sure of that, just guessing. Will have to read Barbara's article on that again.
 
#40 ·
Well first...you had a lot of nerve sleeping in :) ..while here we all are reading, typing our fingers raw..racking our brains, or rather other's like Earl's.. :) then trying to keep up with posted updates..!!

We have 5+"of new sticky snow as of now..still coming down, the worst is supposedly happening thru the early evening...hard for you to empathize from the West Coast? :) ..back a little later... I see a cup of coffee in my near future..LOL

Judy
 
#42 ·
If you get the Golden Retriever News and check back through the last few years, there have been articles on some of the field Goldens from England, and in Sept/Oct 09 one on Holway and June Atkinson; more in N/D '10; in S/O '11 one on Ann Fowler and it gives some information about early Goldens D.L. really liked. In N/D '11 there is a write up on The Tigathoe Four with more info on Quar. 2012 has had a variety of articles on early Goldens including some of Torch's as well as in Sept/Oct on Ripp owned by Bill Connor. More are planned for 2013.

If anyone has old photos or information on some of the well known early Goldens, I would love to have you write me about it privately. I am working on some right at the moment and love to get additional data---especially personal knowledge about some of those wonderful Goldens.

A personal note---when I started trials, for some reason I seemed to always be #1 in the line up--no rotation and a "draw" was done. I remember asking Betty Wilkinson if she would mind holding Luke in the blind so I could watch the test dog run. She said "does he bite?"---- I thought she was kidding, then realized she wasn't. I had never seen or been around a Golden that bit. Later I saw a couple of the early ones being trained, and if I had been trained with the methods they were, I would have bitten as well! The same with some of the Labs----the brighter they were, it seemed the more they resented unfairness. I grew up riding, training and competing with horses, so was not naive about variations in training methods and philosophies. As training methods for retrievers evolved and progressed, many dogs who would have been washed out went on to have outstanding careers.

Glenda
 
#44 ·
Glenda, thanks for noting the specific issues of GR News that would be of interest. Some time ago, I thought of purchasing the last few years worth, but then realized how expensive that would be. Having an idea of which to buy is helpful.

I hope Bon and Earl and JD will dig out some photos and stories for you to work with! Love your articles and sharing. And your insight about why the early dogs would bite! Makes sense to me!

As for the question of whether today's dogs are any different from those in UK, and whether outcrossing to their FT dogs would be beneficial - I guess Judy, Glenda and myself will have to make a trip over there for an indepth analysis!!! Anyone else want to tag along? Wouldn't that be so fun?! First round at the pub is on me!
 
#46 ·
I bred twice to Nancy Miner's "Buddy" and twice to Harold Bruniga's Sangamo Red. The time I spent at the kitchen table with both people is remembered fondly.
 
#49 ·
Glenda,

A thought ... has anyone suggested to GRCA that they bundle the articles they have published in the past on the kennels, the breeders, and the Goldens of the past into one publication and market it? I think it would sell and could easily be Volume I of a series -- "The History of the Golden Retriever in America". Even with that title, it could include the early kennels, dogs, and breeders in England and elsewhere.

Helen
 
#51 ·
Jennifer, there are more articles than what I mentioned. Write me privately re some that would interest you, give me your e-mail address, and I will see what I can do.

Helen---sounds like a great idea and I am doing a lot of articles aimed for the Archives re trying to pull up info on some of the top field Goldens. What has been dismaying is how hard it has been to track down information other than in bits and pieces. If anyone has anything, would love to get my hands on it. Will bring up your suggestion to the powers that be and see what response I get. My interest is only in the field Goldens----but if anyone were interested in conformation and some of the early top obedience Goldens, a lot of that information is there for the digging out in the old GRNews. Barb Branstad has been living in Kinko's copying info from the very early GRNs and sending it on to me. She has definitely been putting in the hours on this.

Actually, at the moment on working on CH-AFC Lorelei's Golden Rockbottom UD and hope to put it together with an interview on his breeder and the dogs in his kennels, Reinhard Bischoff. Hondo will be in the Mar-Apr '13 issue. Have other articles ready to go re Kate of Rocky-Vue, Squawkie Hill Dapper Dexter, Oakcreek Van Cleve, Beautywood's Tamarack and Shelter Cove Beauty with additional ones in the pipeline. These have all been field champions as well as one won the Canadian National and two won the US National Open.

In addition, am working on the history of Goldens who were Finalists in the Master Nationals. Tremendous thanks goes to Bruce Bachert who saw my lament on RTF about needing information----I have a large file box full of the data he sent on to me. He has proven to be a tremendous asset. What is proving very hard here is getting photos of some of the early Golden competitors.

Again--a cry from the heart---any bits and pieces of info you can send to me, old photos, personal stories about any of the old field Goldens, I would love to have them.

Thanks.

Glenda
 
#75 ·
Mike's father passed away a couple-few years ago.

Very much appreciating this thread, all. Thank you.

-Julie
 
#53 ·
Earl, you finally "flushed" me out after reading these responses. Bought my first Golden pup from Phil Uehling (sp?) in Onalaska, WI, in late 1960s. Kinike ("kin of Nike?"was Phil's kennel name, my pup's mother was "Nike," I remember. Always liked the Stilrovin line, and Vern Weber's Chief Sands (Bozo). Later bought Mioaks Prairie Storm (Stormy) from Vern Weber when his eyesight was failing and he could not see Stormy at distance on blinds. That is when Vern went to blacks, I think (easier to see). I've trained long enough (still do) with Darrell Frisbie to remember Ben ( FC/AFC Benjamin Rajah Frisbie) and his national derby champ Buddy. My thoughts on today's Goldens and field trials: Small Golden gene pool, but we are making progress. Don't see many slow-pokes or "land eye dominant" dogs any more.) Modern advances with e-collars, etc., have helped tremendously in training all breeds. (Yeah, I remember training in the "old days," not good). Training still fun, trials not so much--to damn competitive, cut-throat, and not enough true amateur trainers. (Look at set-ups by some of today's amateur judges, too many reflect training set-ups by their professional trainers). Sorry, enuf ranting...
 
#55 ·
Great post, Wayne! Thanks! Do you have any comparisons of 1960s line to todays model? Are they similar or very different? Glenda sent me some photos of Stilrovin's Rip Tide, which look VERY much like my current pup of this pedigree: www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=508101 She has a very classic look. Would be interested in your views of major changes to the field golden in the last 50 years!

Thanks again for contributing,
Jennifer
 
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