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Opinions Needed

8K views 33 replies 24 participants last post by  PalouseDogs 
#1 ·
So we just left our first puppy class. I am torn on going back or not. I am new to training a working retriever and need opinions.

We are working our way through Hillmann and it is going well. Tonight at class everyone is working on sit, so I proceed to work on sit as we have been in Hillmann for the past couple weeks. I am walking away from him and side to side and he is doing great even with all the distractions. Then the class moves on to stay or wait as the instructor calls it. Well ok we will keep working on our sits. At this point the instructor comes over to me and tells me that I dont want to be moving away from him. I explain we are working through a program and the reason for going to the class was socialization and distractions. She replies that what may work at home probably will not work during the class with all the other puppies.

The class then used treats to lure the pups out of a sit and into a "stand". We did not participate in this part either because I did not want him to think its ok to leave sit without being released.

The socialization part was great for him but other than that I am wondering if we should continue going. I am probably overthinking this.

Thanks
 
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#2 ·
You asked for opinion's... If you are happy with the way the Hillman video is going,then stay with it and if you want to go back to the class,get what you and your pup need from it, Bill Hillman is a successful retriever trainer...that has proven results, what is your puppy trainers credentials with finished HT/FT/gundog's/retrievers? ,just my internet opinion.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Been there, done that!

"I am training a dog for field work" ..... I have paid my money to attend your class and we are here for socialization. We will gladly participate in whatever OB your class takes part in that works with my "field" training program!

(Edit .... Did not mean for this to sound rude ... all said in a polite way to the instructor of course! Just did not want the OP to give up on the puppy class!)

Keep going with the Hillman program but use the puppy program to YOUR best advantage!!

:)
 
#5 ·
sAME BOAT JUST ENROLLED BY 3 MONTH OLD IN PUPPY KINDERGARDEN. i MAKE NO COMMENTS AND JUST DO IT MY WAY AND STAY OUT OF EVERYONES WAY. ALSO, USING HILLMAN PROGRAM. PLUS I CAN'T STAND THE AMOUNT OF TREATS THEY USE TO GET COMPLIANCE.
 
#9 ·
I am going to go a few minutes early next week and explain to the instructor my plans and how I am only going to do what works for us.
That's a good plan. I did the same thing (talking to the instructor) before the first class. We didn't do "stay", had to find another word for "back" and did not use treats. I avoided displaying any two-sided heeling in the classes.

The instructor was always given an explanation quietly on the side when any "issues" came up. They were just fine with the "arrangement". Those classes were a fun, cold winter diversion.
 
#10 ·
Ohhhh - I totally understand...we train labs and I take my first Jack Russell to a puppy class...I use certain commands that the instructor didn't like...she quickly realized - I wasn't going to obey her! When they worked on stuff that was against my training...I worked on sit quietly by myself without drawing attention to myself... Keep going...don't fret too much...
 
#14 · (Edited)
So why wouldn't you want to teach your puppy to stand so the vet can examine him? I'm confused. Starting with luring, then putting the behavior on verbal cue is pretty standard stuff. The dog isn't getting up on his own. He's getting up because you gave him a visual cue in the form of body language. You'll then transition this over to a verbal cue. It seems to me like you might be so wrapped up in what you're doing that you're missing an opportunity to learn something about basic obedience training.

Bill's stuff is great and certainly has proven results, but learning about the basics of obedience training can't hurt you... or your dog.

There's something to be learned from every dog trainer you come across. You're missing the opportunity to do that by dismissing the instructor.

You never did say if you had trouble maintaining a sit with the other pups around when you moved away. I see the instructor's point, esp given that you hadn't spoken to her beforehand.

You really should consider learning the basics of verbal cues, luring, markers and rewards. It provides a basis for a lot of what you're going to do in the future. Bill's program, like I said, is awesome (yes, I have it) but doesn't address these basic building blocks (not that it should).
 
#15 ·
We train field labs and teach beginner obedience as well. I am sure your instructor will understand when you speak to her. We aften tell people who have different needs (such as not wanting an automatic sit because they are showing conformation and need the dog to stack) to use the lessons in the ways that are appropriate for them. As far as the stand is concerned we have had many recommendations for our classes from local vets because of it. The other command that some trialers don't teach is a down. A friend of ours had us teach his dog down because he was wild coming out of his crate. Bob now makes the dog down on the tail gate so he can put the collar on and have control when the dog hits the ground. As far as the use of treats, they are a good motivator or lure in the beginning but we wean them off as the classes progress.
 
#17 ·
Along the lines of Darrin's point, do not get stuck in the frame of mind that every interaction with your pup has to be exactly like the mechanics of the Hillmann Puppy DVD sessions. Those sessions fall within a much bigger, all encompassing philosophy that Bill defines for us in his Puppy DVD.

This Hillmann philosophy and the key principles should guide you in every interaction with your pup, including walks, play, in the car, in the house ... and puppy obedience classes. Every puppy obedience class I've ever attended could be made to fit within the Hillmann philosophy without making a big deal out of it with the instructor or classmates.

Your pup is a sponge, ready to soak up all different kinds of lessons. Stay true to the Hillmann philosophy and his principles for your relationship with your pup, but be open to the idea that there are unlimited techniques for applying this philosophy to your interactions with your pup.

Jim
 
#18 ·
You would be surprised how quickly dogs/pups can learn situational training. That is they learn they can and are expected to do one thing in one place and another in another place. They are little sponges so take advantage of it. Just don't ask the pup to do a stand or recall in the field, yet.
deb
 
#23 ·
x2
We show in obedience, breed, agility, field....dogs quickly learn the difference. No reason a "field trained puppy" can't do a down or a stand, or a "breed ring dog" can't heel with an automatic sit. They're pretty smart animals.
Get whatever you can from the class, and enjoy the time with your puppy.
 
#19 ·
Thank you again everyone. I am open to different methods as I started with treats when he first came home and continue to use them periodically.

My main concern was that luring him out of a sit to a stand with a treat would confuse him. I honestly did not think anything of it until our first attempt and he would not budge from his sit. That made me wonder if I was sending mixed messages so I stopped.

I am open to teaching him as many commands as possible, as we are working on down right now using treats.
 
#21 ·
The "stand" posts reminded me of another "adjustment" in the OB classes. The hunting/field command for that expectation is actually "whoa". In one of my regular OB training routines all my retrievers are expected to return to heel from a distance doing "here" spaced with alternating "sit", "whoa", "down" commands and/or remote drops. It is an excellent responsiveness drill.

As was mentioned "whoa" is very useful at the vets (standing examinations & taking temperatures) and for grooming. I know "whoa" makes "Dremeling" my dogs' hind paws easier and when doing the mandatory bitch checks at HRC hunt tests, too.

And "whoa" is a given if you are working with pointing Labs.

One thing I carefully avoided at the classes was mentioning anything about a heeling stick or e-collar. ;)
 
#22 ·
The problem is not uncommon. I got lucky as my obedience trainer had done field. I spoke to him about the commands that I use and some conflicts. We worked it out.

BTW, obedience is obedience. Read Bill Tarrant's book, HEY PUP, FETCH IT UP to get his take on borrowing from other venues.

IMO, Darrin's comments are good.
 
#26 ·
I have gone to puppy class for the distractions. I have used my own commands. Sit, not stay. Heeling on both sides and here. In the pre program they knew where I stood. Guess what, she was class star. When they are pups, treats are okay because they go away.

Mary Beth
 
#27 ·
The stand command is one that should be taught. It comes in very helpful for being at the vet, the groomer, for clipping nails, etc. Don't over look it!
 
#34 ·
I can't say whether you're overthinking or underthinking. In hunt training, the retrieve (to a natural, driven retriever) is an powerful reward. I don't know whether you're in a pet "manners" class or a class where the instructor may be trying to lay a foundation for both competitive obedience trials and basic manners.

Competitive obedience training doesn't not have the built-in reward (the retrieve) that hunt training does. Competitive obedience involves a whole lot of persnickity obsession with detail that does not come naturally to a dog. Almost all dogs need some external reward (treats or play) to learn to like obedience, which is why virtually all top OB competitiors today use a lot of treats.

Dogs, as someone pointed out, are highly situational. Believe me, your dog will quickly learn the difference between field and OB. You might want to take a look at Connie Cleveland's Dog Trainers Workshop website:
http://www.dogtrainersworkshop.com/dog-training/competition-training/

In particular, watch her videos of her training her labrador puppy, Nate. She has videos of Nate doing field work and competition obedience exercises. In the former, Nate is working for the retrieve (few or no treats). In the latter, he's getting plenty of treats (e.g., see this video of Nate learning to retrieve a dumbbell and return to a front position: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNOJyyycyV4

Connie Cleveland has goldens that have both AFCs and OTCHs (Obedience Trial Champion)
Connie Cleveland's Golden, AFC OTCH Topbrass Caleb UD, was the only Golden entered in the 2012 National Amateur Retriever Championship.

I would say that her dogs could tell the difference between obedience and field trial work.:D

Also, you might enjoy watching her videos of her teaching field work to Nate.

Janice Gunn (TNT kennels) also has Goldens with both FC/OTCH titles. She also uses a ton of treats for obedience.
 
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