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Push-pull

5K views 28 replies 16 participants last post by  Buzz 
#1 ·
Could someone please explain push-pull drill to me. Thanks
 
#2 ·
There are more ways than one to run one, but I prefer a simple modified Wagon Wheel Lining Drill using only 4 bumpers initially. Each bumper is planted 90 degrees apart to provide a couple significant advantages.



With dog & handler in the center of the "wheel", the bumpers (placed about 6 paces each from the dog) represent a visual target for the dog to lock on, and get used to sitting up straight and tall - prepared to run straight ahead as commanded. Once the dog returns, he delivers the bumper, the bumper is returned to its spot, and then the handler turns the dog either right or left to retrieve the next bumper. This offers large, clear 90 degree turns that build effective movement with the handler.

As the dog develops good habits you can add the additional 4 bumpers, located between the previous ones. That provides a full, single tier, 8-bumper Wagon Wheel drill on smaller turns.

Does this help?

Evan
 
#13 ·
There are more ways than one to run one, but I prefer a simple modified Wagon Wheel Lining Drill using only 4 bumpers initially. Each bumper is planted 90 degrees apart to provide a couple significant advantages.



With dog & handler in the center of the "wheel", the bumpers (placed about 6 paces each from the dog) represent a visual target for the dog to lock on, and get used to sitting up straight and tall - prepared to run straight ahead as commanded. Once the dog returns, he delivers the bumper, the bumper is returned to its spot, and then the handler turns the dog either right or left to retrieve the next bumper. This offers large, clear 90 degree turns that build effective movement with the handler.

As the dog develops good habits you can add the additional 4 bumpers, located between the previous ones. That provides a full, single tier, 8-bumper Wagon Wheel drill on smaller turns.

Does this help?

Evan
I would suggest to Evan and the Op to read and reread post #9 for a better understanding of the concept the OP asked about.

Does this help???
 
#3 ·
Place some bumbers out in a line or around in a circle (wagon wheel) about 10 yards away.

Sit the dog at your side and line him up for a bumper. Send him and then receive facing the same spot. pitch the bumper back to the spot. Now move the dog to another bumper. To push is to move the dog away from the handler. To pull is to move the dog toward the handler.

Example. If the dog is at your left side, you would push to move to the left or pull to move them to the right. It is common to use the word heel when pushing and the word here when pulling.

In the wagon wheel lining drill you may start with just 4 white bumpers at the 12, 3, 6, and 9 O'clock positions. When going smoothly, you can add orange bumpers in between and about 5 yards beyond the white. You can advance to 8 white bumpers and 8 orange in-between. Some even go to 16 white and 16 orange but I never have.

Drill works on communication and getting fine line adjustments also is a no-no drill in that if the dog takes a very poor initial line you will calmly tell them no and try again, likely moving up to simplify. This is no place for ecollar corrections. Use attrtion only.
 
#5 ·
Evan has already formulated the plan. All you have to do is follow it.;)
 
#8 ·
For a left sided dog, Heel for moving left, Heel has a "L" for left in it. Here for moving right, Here has an "R" for right in it. That's the way that I remembered it initially.
 
#9 ·
The wagon wheel is really better suited to teaching the dog how to stay lined up with you and working with you in the heel position. Push/Pull is more about using your influence to slightly adjust the dogs head. A good drill for this is the 3 bumper pile drill.

1. Put 3 piles out in a line, spaced 10 feet apart, 2 bumpers in each pile.
2. Line up with the dog facing the middle pile. Start close, 10' or so from the pile.
3. Using your outside leg move forward slightly or lean back slightly to push/pull the dogs head to the pile you want him to go to. If he doesn't go to the right pile, use attrition. To increase difficulty move back.

This is pictured in the Dobb's Retriever training book if I recall.

/Paul
 
#11 ·
The wagon wheel is really better suited to teaching the dog how to stay lined up with you and working with you in the heel position. Push/Pull is more about using your influence to slightly adjust the dogs head. A good drill for this is the 3 bumper pile drill.

1. Put 3 piles out in a line, spaced 10 feet apart, 2 bumpers in each pile.
2. Line up with the dog facing the middle pile. Start close, 10' or so from the pile.
3. Using your outside leg move forward slightly or lean back slightly to push/pull the dogs head to the pile you want him to go to. If he doesn't go to the right pile, use attrition. To increase difficulty move back.

This is pictured in the Dobb's Retriever training book if I recall.

/Paul
and in Carol's book of drills, as well.


.
 
#10 · (Edited)
It appears to me that the missing ingredient in these descriptions is that in a wagon wheel drill, you line the dog's eyes, head, spine and tail to the bumper you want. In a push/pull drill you have the dog's spine and tail pointing at one bumper and you push or pull their head and eyes to another bumper and expect/require the dog not to move their body and to go for the bumper at which they are looking. It looks like most of you are describing a wagon wheel drill.
 
#14 ·
When I read the different opinions on push and pull and heel and here, I know again why I just wrote a 3 page article for Retrievers ONLINE on the the subject of two-sided dogs and how to work them. That article is at the printer and mails later this week, so have a look at it.

I'm not sure if the OP wanted a description of what a Push Pull drill is or just how to work on the skill of pushing and pulling. Any set of bumpers spaced fairly closely can be used to work on push-pull. A wagon-wheel does just fine as does a staright line across in front of you.

Push pull is used to line up all of spine, neck, head, eyes and attitude not just the eyes. Lining the eyes is just the last step in accurate lining. I for one do not advocate having the spine one way and the eyes somewhere else and sending the dog.

I use "here" to move the dogs body and/or eyes towards me and heel to move either or both away (which means dog is actaully backing up or looking away). For a left sided dog heel means to look or move to the left. It measn to look or ove to the rigt when the dog is on the right side. SO, heel and here are used the same whether the dog is on the right side or the left side. Additional cues that go aloong with them for more subtle adjustments are finger snaps behind for the heel and leg pats for the here. The outside leg can be used for fine tuning the head/eyes but mostly as a push rather than as a pull.

These uses of heel and here are widespread but obviously not universal based on some responses here. Similarly, while there are 2-3 specific push pull drills, there is no one single universal drill. You can work on push pull with any set of closely spaced bumpers that are mostly but not necessarily visible.

I think the key is to work on precise alignement of the whole dog and refined responses to your various commands and cues.

It's as much for your accuracy as it is for your dog although eventually we want the teamwork!!!

Working on precise lining is never a waste of time!
 
#16 ·
In my training wagon wheels are introduction to the lining process and as they get better we move to push/pull lining to piles. As Alec stated the drill is 10% and the application is 90%. The influence you can put on a dog with your presence is amazing and fully understanding that from written form is difficult. No doubt why the article is 3 pages long.

/Paul
 
#25 ·
I think something else that has not been mentioned are the factors affecting the push or pull...both can be difficult, especially if the dog has not been taught how to move with it's handler and the handler hasn't learned how to push/pull their dog.
 
#18 ·
I think the inherent power of push is greater than pull due to its direct nature. Pull tends to be more indirect. Both are effective if your training is effective, and well maintained.

Evan
 
#21 ·
I think of it this way.

When talking to someone, you step close and invade their space. They naturally step away. That is easy. How many times when talking to that same person can you step back and get them to step forward to keep the same distance or closer. This is push pull

/Paul
 
#24 ·
That's a very good point. To quote Rex Carr, "There is little reason to expect a dog to be more accurate than you are."

Evan
 
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