Interrupted triple [Archive] - RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF

: Interrupted triple



drunkenpoacher
03-02-2020, 11:12 PM
81158

Here is a crude drawing of a hypothetical test. An interrupted triple. All guns are out as dog and handler get to the line.
R2 is thrown as diversion, dog is released to pick up the blind with all gunners out.
Low terrain just past the flier causes the dog to drop out of the handlers sight for aprox 5 yards. True line to blind is about 5-7 yards left of flier station.
After the dog picks up the blind and passes the R2 thrower, the thrower walks aprox 30yds to his station and retires under a gillie blanket.
After the blind is completed R1 is thrown then the flier is shot as R1 retires to a blind behind bushes.
Dog is released to pick up the three marks.
Thoughts and comments on this hypothetical test?

Ted Shih
03-03-2020, 09:43 AM
81150
Here is a crude drawing of a hypothetical test. An interrupted triple.
R1 is thrown as diversion, dog is released to pick up the blind with all gunners out.
Low terrain just past the flier causes the dog to drop out of the handlers sight for aprox 5 yards. True line to blind is about 5-7 yards behind flier station.
After the dog picks up the blind and passes the R1 thrower on return, the thrower walks aprox 30yds and retires under a gillie blanket.
When the dog completes the blind R2 is thrown, then the flier is shot as R2 retires to a blind.
Dog is released to pick up the three marks.
Thoughts and comments on this hypothetical test?

It would help if you had a better diagram, and if it were oriented properly. It is difficult for me to see what you have. The more I - or anyone else - has to work to understand what you are trying to do, the less likely you are to get responses.

As a general proposition - in a trial, as compared to training - I don't interrupt my test unless

a) I have time issues because of a large field; or
b) Something about the field I have been given compels an interrupted test

Ted

drunkenpoacher
03-03-2020, 09:49 AM
It would help if you had a better diagram, and if it were oriented properly. It is difficult for me to see what you have. The more I - or anyone else - has to work to understand what you are trying to do, the less likely you are to get responses.



I'll try to draw it clearer later and repost, I'm no artist and was very tired last night. I often cannot get pics properly oriented in this site.

Ted Shih
03-03-2020, 02:44 PM
As I noted earlier, I don't like interrupted tests absent some sort of compelling need.

That being said - in my opinion

1) R1 is not an effective diversion.

- It is too far laterally out of the picture (Poison birds need to be close enough to the line to the blind to create suction off line, but not so close as to give the dogs the line)
- It is too close to the mat. I think that in the AA stakes - which this must be given an interrupted triple - if the PB is too close, you reduce its imact
- As a water bird, it is not especially attractive to the dogs

Consequently, I find R1 less than compelling as a diversion

2) With respect to R2, I think you need to look at page 30 of the Rule Book.


Judges may instruct Guns and their associated bird thrower to retire from the sight of the dog, or dogs, on line provided that every reasonable efforts must be made to insure that the movement of retired Guns is only permitted at a time and under conditions to minimize the chance that the running dog will be distracted by such movements.


The permitted movement of retired Guns and their associated bird throwers should be limited to the minimum distance required for effective concealment. Such retirement should be in a direction away from the direction in which the bird is thrown.


I think R2 is deficient in at least two ways

a) You are retiring on the run, which will be distracting for some, maybe all dogs
b) You are retiring the gun 30 yards

3) This is not a RB issue, but by retiring 30 yards, you are increasing the likelihood of dogs getting R2.
- As it currently stands a dog could run away from the water, cross the BB path some 40 yards away from the bird, check down, and eventually dig up the bird
- If you left the BB where he threw (which is not unreasonable with a ghilie blanket), a dog would need to come much closer to the water to pick up any scent.
In short, it's a better bird without the long retire.

4) I don't find R1 particularly appealing.
- It is relatively close, reducing its difficulty
- It looks from your diagram that there is an obvious clump of cover
- I think a decent handler with a decent dog could poke the dog at the cover, it could break down in the BB scent and come up with a bird without getting wet

Ted

drunkenpoacher
03-03-2020, 03:33 PM
As I noted earlier, I don't like interrupted tests absent some sort of compelling need.

That being said - in my opinion

1) R1 is not an effective diversion.

- It is too far laterally out of the picture (Poison birds need to be close enough to the line to the blind to create suction off line, but not so close as to give the dogs the line)
- It is too close to the mat. I think that in the AA stakes - which this must be given an interrupted triple - if the PB is too close, you reduce its imact
- As a water bird, it is not especially attractive to the dogs

Consequently, I find R1 less than compelling as a diversion

2) With respect to R2, I think you need to look at page 30 of the Rule Book.



I think R2 is deficient in at least two ways

a) You are retiring on the run, which will be distracting for some, maybe all dogs
b) You are retiring the gun 30 yards

3) This is not a RB issue, but by retiring 30 yards, you are increasing the likelihood of dogs getting R2.
- As it currently stands a dog could run away from the water, cross the BB path some 40 yards away from the bird, check down, and eventually dig up the bird
- If you left the BB where he threw (which is not unreasonable with a ghilie blanket), a dog would need to come much closer to the water to pick up any scent.
In short, it's a better bird without the long retire.

4) I don't find R1 particularly appealing.
- It is relatively close, reducing its difficulty
- It looks from your diagram that there is an obvious clump of cover
- I think a decent handler with a decent dog could poke the dog at the cover, it could break down in the BB scent and come up with a bird without getting wet

Ted
OOPS
Great answer but made an error on the drawing and in the question. Drove 14 hours yesterday, guess I'm still not fully functional or maybe I never am.
R2 is the diversion bird thrown before the blind. Then R1 and the flier last.
Blind is probably 275-300 yds
R2 is about 250yds
Flier- 230yds
R1-100yds
Top of page is north, wind is SW

Daren Galloway
03-04-2020, 11:18 AM
3) This is not a RB issue, but by retiring 30 yards, you are increasing the likelihood of dogs getting R2.
- As it currently stands a dog could run away from the water, cross the BB path some 40 yards away from the bird, check down, and eventually dig up the bird
- If you left the BB where he threw (which is not unreasonable with a ghilie blanket), a dog would need to come much closer to the water to pick up any scent.
In short, it's a better bird without the long retire.
Ted

I personally disagree with this. I think retiring that far away will hold the dogs away from the water with foot scent and scent of the gun station. Last year I retired a gun 10 paces from where he threw, on the outside of what I was comfortable with but my cojudge and I agreed it was fine, and dogs that didn't really mark that bird camped out by the gun station.

Charles C.
03-04-2020, 03:47 PM
I don't care for guns that retire more than a few yards away. You're essentially laying down a foot path that leads the dog away from the bird. I suppose it's necessary in certain situations and some dogs do it well because they have had a thousand ten step marks, but ghillie blankets usually make it unnecessary to retire 30 or 40 yards.

MooseGooser
03-04-2020, 06:39 PM
Just so we understand.. There have been no formal rules or guidelines for this new approach. I believe it is going to be up to the participating Judges.. They are the ones who are going to be willing to give their time and expertise to answer questions..

It would be nice for you to confirm you are indeed a Judge, and what level your experience..

I personally am fine with setup discussions being brought forward for Judges comments. I think there is a Lot to learn from that.. I believe JUDGES discussing a set-up between themselves, just like on a setup day before the test/ trial, would be interesting. May show how they work through issues..



IMHO,, I believe a question should be asked, then JUDGES ONLY will give their views. Those views may be based on rules , and judging experience.. No Training discussions.

I do not believe debate from people who don’t Judge (handlers) is warranted here. State your question,,then read and learn.. Treat this as though you are attending a symposium..

The more comfortable judges feel responding,, the more information will be gained..

Judges!! Try not to get into bickering debates.. between yourselves.. There most assuredly will be differences of opinion... The RULES MAY settle those times..

Lets try to keep this civil, and a positive experience for education

The two most important words are Civility and RESPECT..

MooseGooser
03-04-2020, 06:42 PM
IF Judges asks for questions, or encourage such, and each agree,,,, then its fine! Its up to the Judges, bottom line..

Ken Barton
03-05-2020, 11:09 AM
I agree about the awkwardness and logistic walk path probably unnecessary and my main problem with interruptions especially with a go flyer is having to repeat all that in the event of a no bird

drunkenpoacher
03-05-2020, 08:26 PM
From page 32 of the rule book
Diversion Bird: A diversionary bird or birds, (but not more than two) may be used as a diversion in a blind retrieve, but only if the diversionary bird (or birds) is/are thrown or shot so that the running dog has a clear view of each such diversionary bird as it is thrown or shot. No bird which the running dog does not see may be placed and hidden on the general path to a blind. Nothing in this provision precludes the use of visible flyer crates, bagged birds, placed at the location of previous gun stations, or bird throwers as diversions from the blind.

The running dogs see the R2 mark thrown into the tules as a diversion prior to running the blind. There is a bag of birds and a gillie blanket at least 30 yards in the opposite direction of the thrown mark, towards the line to the blind and out of sight from the line.

Wayne Nissen
07-10-2020, 12:20 PM
I agree about the awkwardness and logistic walk path probably unnecessary and my main problem with interruptions especially with a go flyer is having to repeat all that in the event of a no bird

I agree with ken and Charles, the walk is simply a ploy to confuse the dog rather than find out if the dog can remember a mark. Move R2 up approximately 50 yards throwing in the same direction and retiring in same area as thrown from. Properly retired the test has difficulty yet very doable .

wecower842
07-24-2020, 02:58 AM
That seems awesome