Ok here goes- Double Land Blind with PB [Archive] - RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF

: Ok here goes- Double Land Blind with PB



Ken Barton
03-05-2020, 05:49 AM
Running double land blind cross wind 15-20 mph left to right, gun on the left side of line to long blind and throws PB to within 30 yards to line to LB and 15-20 yards to line of SB. So the handler arrives at the mat, calls for the bird, cues his dog off the PB but now had to pick up the long blind first so he has to pass through the scent cone of the PB and the scent cone of the SB to retrieve the LB first. Legal? Illegal?

I wasn’t there to see this only described to me, I do judge FT’s and I think this falls under the rule of no bird should be planted in the general path of a line to the blind that the dog has not seen thrown but I could be mistaken. Thought this new format might be the place to discuss instead of the usual telegraph format.

Ted Shih
03-05-2020, 07:40 AM
Running double land blind cross wind 15-20 mph left to right, gun on the left side of line to long blind and throws PB to within 30 yards to line to LB and 15-20 yards to line of SB. So the handler arrives at the mat, calls for the bird, cues his dog off the PB but now had to pick up the long blind first so he has to pass through the scent cone of the PB and the scent cone of the SB to retrieve the LB first. Legal? Illegal?

I wasn’t there to see this only described to me, I do judge FT’s and I think this falls under the rule of no bird should be planted in the general path of a line to the blind that the dog has not seen thrown but I could be mistaken. Thought this new format might be the place to discuss instead of the usual telegraph format.


Ken

According to the RAC, this is illegal. There was an RAC meeting many years ago at a National Amateur Retriever Championship, I'm sorry I cannot remember where or when, where this issue was discussed. Kate Simonds was the head of the RAC, so it would have been after her husband, Pete died and before John Russell became the head.

At any rate, this very issue was discussed, and Kate announced that the RAC considered the test to be in violation of the Rules.

Ted

Ken Barton
03-05-2020, 10:43 AM
Ok that’s what I thought and agree with completely.

labsforme
03-05-2020, 10:47 PM
Ok that’s what I thought and agree with completely.

Pg 34 par 20 "No bird which the running dog does not see may be placed and hidden on the general path to a blind.Nothing in this provision precludes the use of visible flyer crates, bagged birds, placed at the location of previous gun stations, or bird throwers as diversions from the blind."
So running the long blind first makes this illegal.

Nick Toti
03-06-2020, 08:42 AM
Running double land blind cross wind 15-20 mph left to right, gun on the left side of line to long blind and throws PB to within 30 yards to line to LB and 15-20 yards to line of SB. So the handler arrives at the mat, calls for the bird, cues his dog off the PB but now had to pick up the long blind first so he has to pass through the scent cone of the PB and the scent cone of the SB to retrieve the LB first. Legal? Illegal?

I wasn’t there to see this only described to me, I do judge FT’s and I think this falls under the rule of no bird should be planted in the general path of a line to the blind that the dog has not seen thrown but I could be mistaken. Thought this new format might be the place to discuss instead of the usual telegraph format.

Couple things come to mind...

All it states is the "general path" as far as relation. I don't necessarily think we can confirm this hypothetical setup is illegal if no specific distance parameters are defined in the rulebook. Could the judges argue that IF the dog is so far off the "general path" that it COULD pick up the PB or Short blind than it would be eliminated anyway? Basically that the dog was in no man's land before it even had the opportunity to pick up the Short blind or the PB and was eliminated on their judges sheet regardless of it picked up the PB/SB or not.

I am having some issues visualizing this setup with the variables stated. I think we need more info from Ken if the LB was under the arc of the poison bird or on the backside of the gun, because I do not see where he states the direction of throw, only the location of the gunner. If the line to the LB is in the scent cone of the SB and the PB with a left to right wind I would have to assume the gun was throwing right to left with the LB on the backside of the gunner and the short blind just outside of where the PB landed?

Do judges avoid this " rule conflict" and "generality" entirely by running short blind then long blind only?

Is this entire thing an issue and addressed formally because it's "tricking/unfair to the dog" because the dog is running a blind and scents a bird that it did not see fall therefore the dog thinks it has arrived at it's bird?

All honest questions here, just trying to understand and learn...

drunkenpoacher
03-06-2020, 09:05 AM
Is this entire thing an issue and addressed formally because it's "tricking/unfair to the dog" because the dog is running a blind and scents a bird that it did not see fall therefore the dog thinks it has arrived at it's bird?
IMO yes, people put a great deal of time, work and money into preparing their dogs for a field trial. They expect well thought out tests to challenge the dogs and sort out the placements. Tests that "trick' dogs waste everyone's time and money and do not determine the best dogs on a given weekend.

paul young
03-06-2020, 09:06 AM
2 good, meaty land blinds associated with a poison bird is a formidable test in the 2nd series. No need to get cute and flirt with gray areas of an issue which the Governing body on Regulations saw a need to specifically address.

I also believe this to be an illegal test. -Paul

Ken Barton
03-06-2020, 09:13 AM
Lines to both blinds outside the arc but the shorter blind closer to the line to the bird.

rboudet
03-06-2020, 11:19 AM
Lines to both blinds outside the arc but the shorter blind closer to the line to the bird.

I did not see the blind from the line but I was told the LB was under the arch of the PB. Wind was across the SB in route to the LB. 17 of 43 dogs completed the blinds. Concerns that the test was illegal was never brought to the attention of the FT committee.

Mark Littlejohn
03-06-2020, 09:37 PM
The test as it was explained to me. Instruction was to run LH blind first.
IMO, if the RH blind was run first, this test would be legal.
81232

Wayne Nissen
07-10-2020, 11:35 AM
Running double land blind cross wind 15-20 mph left to right, gun on the left side of line to long blind and throws PB to within 30 yards to line to LB and 15-20 yards to line of SB. So the handler arrives at the mat, calls for the bird, cues his dog off the PB but now had to pick up the long blind first so he has to pass through the scent cone of the PB and the scent cone of the SB to retrieve the LB first. Legal? Illegal?

I wasn’t there to see this only described to me, I do judge FT’s and I think this falls under the rule of no bird should be planted in the general path of a line to the blind that the dog has not seen thrown but I could be mistaken. Thought this new format might be the place to discuss instead of the usual telegraph format.

I was there. It was fun to run, although very stressful. Everybody had to do it, or try anyway.

Doug Main
07-11-2020, 05:35 PM
Ken

According to the RAC, this is illegal. There was an RAC meeting many years ago at a National Amateur Retriever Championship, I'm sorry I cannot remember where or when, where this issue was discussed. Kate Simonds was the head of the RAC, so it would have been after her husband, Pete died and before John Russell became the head.

At any rate, this very issue was discussed, and Kate announced that the RAC considered the test to be in violation of the Rules.

Ted

I was at that meeting. It was at the 2009 National Amateur in Hibbing, MN.

Wayne Nissen
07-12-2020, 01:33 PM
82784
These are the blinds as run.

EdA
07-14-2020, 05:35 PM
I don’t like the rule. It was generated because judges were randomly planting birds in the field that were never retrieved on the upwind side of the line to a blind or blinds. A simple no birds shall be planted in the field that a dog does not retrieve statement would have solved the problem. I like the concept of going by a short blind for a long blind but that test is now illegal.