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: You make the call



Mark Littlejohn
03-05-2020, 09:49 AM
In the spirit of reviving this Forum...

Witnessed this at our derby a few years back. (In fact, I think the Retriever News posted this situation in their Judges Corner)

3rd series. water double, strong winds.
Dog sent for go bird.
Memory bird station radios to judges that his bird was thrown in the water (supposed to be on land), and has drifted pretty away far behind the point. Dog returns with go bird.
Judges tell handler to come back for a rerun since memory bird has moved.

Handler/dog return to the line. Handler sends for go bird as before, but this time dog goes to memory bird first. Retrieves it and returns.
Handler sends for go bird. Dog goes 75% but then veers away. Handler explains that his dog isn't going to return to an old fall.

The books says that the dog needs to complete the test.
Of course a handle in a derby is an automatic disqualification.

As the judge, what do you do?

Daren Galloway
03-05-2020, 10:11 AM
A handle is a disqualification but hes not being judged on that mark because he already picked it up. The handler sent for the go bird first which fulfills his requirement to attempt to pick up the birds in the same order as the 1st run.

I'd judge the dog on his marks, the first go bird and the memory bird on the rerun.

paul young
03-05-2020, 10:45 AM
The handler did what the rules require, as he sent the dog for the go bird. I believe the dog is still required to pick up both birds. It is not scored on the bird it had already retrieved prior to the unfairness which resulted in a no bird being called. The handler should be allowed to handle the dog to the go bird during the re-run in order to complete the test in this instance without penalty. -Paul

Ted Shih
03-05-2020, 10:45 AM
The books says that the dog needs to complete the test.


Where do you find that in the Rule Book?

paul young
03-05-2020, 10:54 AM
page 31, I think. 2 birds are thrown in this test. In order to complete the test, they both must be retrieved., but only one is scored as a mark. -Paul

The re-run of a mark or blind which was previously completed shall be scored on the first completion and faults committed on such re-run shall be ignored except that if the dog (1) does not complete that portion in accordance with the Judges’ instructions for the test or (2) commits any of the faults set forth herein as usually justifying elimination from a stake, he shall be penalized in the same manner as the Judges would penalize him regardless of the re-run.

Mark Littlejohn
03-05-2020, 11:16 AM
Thanks Paul. That's the rub; the dog either needs to be handled, or helped by the gunner to complete that portion of the test.

I agree with Daren, and believe that's what the judges concluded in this instance.

Ted Shih
03-05-2020, 12:33 PM
If this is going to be about the Rule Book, we need to start referencing the Rule Book. What are the pertinent portions of the Rule Book?

Page 31

(A) My notation

If there is an occurrence which makes for a relatively unfair test for a dog, the Judges shall exercise their discretion in determining how to form a judgment of the quality of the work of the dog in the series notwithstanding the unfairness. In forming such judgment the Judges may decide that it is necessary or unnecessary to re-run the dog. If they decide the latter, they may waive delivery to hand of the mark or blind in which the unfairness occurred; if they decide the former, the dog shall be picked up immediately and tested on a new set of birds, if practicable, after waiting behind the line until several other dogs have been tested.

(B) My notation


The re-run of a mark or blind which was not previously completed shall be scored by taking into consideration the combined performances of the dog prior to the point of unfairness in the initial run and after the point of unfairness in the re-run. If there shall be more than one re-run of that mark or blind, the Judges shall exercise their discretion in determining how to score it fairly.
The re-run of a mark or blind which was previously completed shall be scored on the first completion and faults committed on such re-run shall be ignored except that if the dog (1) does not complete that portion in accordance with the Judges’ instructions for the test or (2) commits any of the faults set forth herein as usually justifying elimination from a stake, he shall be penalized in the same manner as the Judges would penalize him regardless of the re-run.

(C) My notation
Notwithstanding the last sentence of Standard Procedure 8, a handler is not free to select marked falls in a re-run in an order different from the order in which they were selected in the initial run, and if the handler deliberately attempts to do so the dog shall be eliminated from the stake.

The Judges decided that the drifting of the Memory Bird was unfair and therefore decided upon a rerun. Part A

Handler does not try to have the dog retrieve the Memory Bird first. Note that handler is not required to try to get go bird first. But handler cannot try to get memory bird first. The disqualification comes from "deliberately attempting" to get the Memory Bird first. Part C

The dog has already been scored (from the first series) in the go bird. Part B

So the pertinent section of the Rule Book comes from Part B, "faults committed on such re-run shall be ignored except that if the dog (1) does not complete that portion in accordance with the Judges’ instructions for the test or (2) commits any of the faults set forth herein as usually justifying elimination from a stake, he shall be penalized in the same manner as the Judges would penalize him regardless of the re-run."

Analysis
- For starters, I generally don't care what the handler's explanation is. Whether true or not, I don't care if this particular dog "doesn't return to an old fall."
- I think that the focus of the analysis is the phrase in Part B that reads "faults committed on such re-run shall be ignored except that if the dog ... commits any of the faults set forth herein as usually justifying elimination from a stake, he shall be penalized in the same manner as the Judges would penalize him regardless of the re-run."

Since handling in the derby "usually justifies elimination" from a derby, must this dog be eliminated?

If not, why not?

Ted

8mmag
03-05-2020, 01:41 PM
SECTION 10. A Derby Stake at a Retriever trial shall be for dogs which have not reached their second birthday on the first day of the trial at which they are being run. For example, a dog whelped May 1, 1983, would not be eligible for Derby Stakes at a trial starting May 1, 1985, but would be eligible at a trial the first day of which was April 30, 1985. Derby stake tests are limited to marked retrieves and dogs which are handled on such retrieves shall be eliminated from competition.

OP did not state what the handler did or did not do, nor whether the dog did or did not pick up the second bird on the rerun so assumptions must be made.
If you assume the handler handled the dog to the bird, the dog Shall Be Eliminated, I see no way to rationalize that wording to "usually justifies elimination" as used in the re-run paragraph...handling in the Derby is mandatory elimination, there is no judges discretion.

The re-run of a mark or blind which was not previously completed shall be scored by taking into consideration the combined performances of the dog prior to the point of unfairness in the initial run and after the point of unfairness in the re-run. If there shall be more than one re-run of that mark or blind, the Judges shall exercise their discretion in determining how to score it fairly.
The re-run of a mark or blind which was previously completed shall be scored on the first completion and faults committed on such re-run shall be ignored except that if the dog (1) does not complete that portion in accordance with the Judges’ instructions for the test or (2) commits any of the faults set forth herein as usually justifying elimination from a stake, he shall be penalized in the same manner as the Judges would penalize him regardless of the re-run.

If you go the other route and assume the handler did not handle the dog to the 2nd bird, either the dog did or did not pick up that 2nd bird. If it did get the bird, however ugly it may have looked, no harm no foul, the dog is judged per the book as one bird on run 1 and one bird on run 2 and would not be scored on the 2nd bird of the re-run. If however, the dog did not ever pick up the 2nd bird in the re-run, then the dog is eliminated because it did not complete the test on the re-run per:

The re-run of a mark or blind which was previously completed shall be scored on the first completion and faults committed on such re-run shall be ignored except that if the dog (1) does not complete that portion in accordance with the Judges’ instructions for the test or (2) commits any of the faults set forth herein as usually justifying elimination from a stake, he shall be penalized in the same manner as the Judges would penalize him regardless of the re-run.

So, by my interpretation of the rules, the dog is eliminated, unless the dog did retrieve the 2nd bird on the re-run without handling.

minnducker
03-05-2020, 01:55 PM
"- For starters, I generally don't care what the handler's explanation is. Whether true or not, I don't care if this particular dog "doesn't return to an old fall."
-" I think that the focus of the analysis is the phrase in Part B that reads "faults committed on such re-run shall be ignored except that if the dog ... commits any of the faults set forth herein as usually justifying elimination from a stake, he shall be penalized in the same manner as the Judges would penalize him regardless of the re-run."
"Since handling in the derby "usually justifies elimination" from a derby, must this dog be eliminated?
If not, why not?

Ted

The person originally posting the question did not sat whether or not the handler was able to handle the dog to the mark, or if the dog returned without the bird, or if the dog eventually picked it up.
But if he handled the dog, or if he would have handled the dog, the rulebook says dogs handling "shall" be eliminated form the derby stake, so it is definitely a fault specified in the rules that mandate elimination.

Section 10 page 21 - Derby stake tests
are limited to marked retrieves and dogs which are
handled on such retrieves shall be eliminated from
competition.

Daren Galloway
03-05-2020, 02:14 PM
SERIOUS FAULTS. (Serious faults listed cover all those instances where the Standard describes conduct of the dog which in and of itself justifies elimination from the stake.
17. Handling on a mark in the Derby Stake.

II. MODERATE FAULTS. (Infractions in this category may actually be so slight as to warrant their consideration as only a “minor’’ fault, or they may be so severe as to warrant their consideration as a “serious fault”; also, repetitions of a “moderate’’ fault
or combination of several of these faults may readily convert the total infractions into a “serious’’ fault.) 1. Failure to mark the “area of the ‘fall,’ ’’ requiring that the dog be handled to the bird; worse on the first bird retrieved than on subsequent birds.

So handling in a derby is a serious fault, justifying elimination from the stake. In any open amateur or qualifying handling to the go bird will be ruled a moderate fault and serious enough to be classified as a serious fault and those dogs will be dropped.

In any open amateur or qualifying it would be normal operating procedure to quickly handle to a flier on a rerun, but no one would blink an eye.

So its ruled a serious fault in the first run, but not the rerun.

captain2560
03-05-2020, 02:55 PM
This situation could have been averted by allowing the dog to retrieve the memory bird. judge the dogs hunt to the fall area then throw him a bird. if he hunts out of the area and recovers the bird that floated off then record that out of area hunt and judge accordingly. In a stake where a handle means elimination, I would be very hesitant to rerun. I realize I'm not giving my thoughts as to the op description of what happened, I'm giving my thoughts as how to fairly judge when something out of the ordinary happens. And if something out of the ordinary is gonna happen, it's going to be at a trial.
Brooks Gibson

Daren Galloway
03-05-2020, 03:29 PM
This situation could have been averted by allowing the dog to retrieve the memory bird. judge the dogs hunt to the fall area then throw him a bird.

Interesting you mention this. I did this very thing judging an open last spring. We shot the flier in the 4t series into the water, sluiced it, it looked dead, sent the dog, dog proceeded directly to the bird, the bird dove, dog followed it for multiple dives, when it became apparent the duck had dove and was gone I instructed the flier shooters to throw the dog a dead bird I knew they had. In my opinion the dog had met all marking and persistence requirements and to rectify the unfairness as quickly and cleanly as possible I did what I did. Letter of the law, no, clean ending to the situation yes.

Ted Shih
03-05-2020, 04:26 PM
I would not eliminate the dog for a handle on the go bird for the following reasons:

1) As I wrote earlier, I think that the key portion of the Rule Book is this phrase: "faults committed on such re-run shall be ignored except that if the dog ... commits any of the faults set forth herein as usually justifying elimination from a stake, he shall be penalized in the same manner as the Judges would penalize him regardless of the re-run."

The term a stake is broader than Derby Stake and I think meant to encompass those faults that apply to all stakes, such as breaking, hard mouth, etc.

2) The dog has already been scored to the go bird. I find it incongruous that we would penalize a dog for something in a minor stake - ON A RERUN, WHERE THE DOG HAS ALREADY BEEN SCORED - that we could care less about in one of the other stakes.

But, I don't think it's clear

Ted

Ken Barton
03-05-2020, 07:21 PM
Excellent example of a field trial kerfuffle that requires nonconcrete thinking, yes he handled on the rerun so he must be eliminated because it’s a Derby but a handle elsewhere does not mean elimination and he did complete the test and shouldn’t be scored at all on the rerun so I also would not drop this dog, again, the unfairness being iatrogenic.

minnducker
03-12-2020, 06:16 PM
It definitely would seem unfair to drop this dog, but in reference to Ted's comment about "a" stake vs the derby stake specifically, the clause I referenced from the rule book specifically refers to the Derby stake:

Section 10 page 21 - Derby stake tests
are limited to marked retrieves and dogs which are
handled on such retrieves shall be eliminated from
competition.

Ted Shih
03-13-2020, 08:54 PM
It definitely would seem unfair to drop this dog, but in reference to Ted's comment about "a" stake vs the derby stake specifically, the clause I referenced from the rule book specifically refers to the Derby stake:

Section 10 page 21 - Derby stake tests
are limited to marked retrieves and dogs which are
handled on such retrieves shall be eliminated from
competition.

The question is whether the more specific section on reruns (page 31) overrides the section on derbies generally (page 21).

My position is that:
a) As a matter of statutory construction, the specific trumps the general (that is, the Rule on re-runs drives the analysis)
b) The use of the word "a" as opposed "the derby" indicates that disqualifying faults are those that apply to all stakes (e.g. switching, refusal to give up a bird), rather than just one stake.

Ted

minnducker
03-16-2020, 03:49 PM
Interesting situation for sure. If we were judging together and we disagreed about dropping this dog, I’d go along with you and call the dog back, and chalk it up to the rule book not being crystal clear. But I’d have a couple nagging concerns. A) The dog gave no indication that it could remember a memory bird, on either the initial run or the rerun. B) The derby stake is unique since in the other stakes, the rule book doesn’t mandate dropping a dog that handles on a mark. A dog can earn championship points or become qualified all-age after handling on a mark. But in the derby the standard is that marking is of paramount importance and dog must be dropped if it has to be handled. If this happened on the last series, it would be a much more difficult decision as to placement.

martaperal57
06-22-2020, 09:36 AM
Interesting situation. I hope to youre fine.