Judging Philosophy [Archive] - RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF

: Judging Philosophy



Ken Barton
03-09-2020, 10:13 AM
Judging by nature is subjective as much as one endeavors to use objectivity. The rule book as a guide states marking is of the utmost importance. Natural ability is important to improving the breeds. Training ability also is important. In a normal AA stake there are usually 2 marking tests and at least one blind to test training and control. Iíve judged with people that look at the marks for placements and use the blinds to separate like marks and other judges that weigh the blinds as either equal to a set of marks or some percentage thereof. I remember that Master judging evolved a scoring system to try to standardize. I realize that aside from the above there are many factors that lend into the final analysis at every trial style, perseverance, pleasing to the eye etc. but in general terms, how do you judge and separate like work at weekends end.

Daren Galloway
03-09-2020, 12:26 PM
Not exactly but basically each bird has the same weight. This weekend we had 8 marks to judge and 3 blinds. By pure numbers the marks are more important. I have made the comment to a cojudge that wanted to drop a dog for a poor blind, not a failure but poor, that we didn't drop dogs in the first series for 1 bad bird, why drop them for 1 bad blind. 1 hunt and a bad blind, 2 hunts, I try to use that as my guidelines.

I also judged with someone that during placements, said "blinds are just a tiebreaker we're only judging marks right now. And I couldn't possibly disagree with that more.

drunkenpoacher
03-09-2020, 12:52 PM
during placenta
Sounds gross, what trial was that?:cool:

Daren Galloway
03-09-2020, 05:56 PM
Sounds gross, what trial was that?:cool:

God damn autocorrect

Ted Shih
03-10-2020, 06:16 AM
Is it possible to discuss Judging without reference to the Rule Book? Apparently, so.

paul young
03-10-2020, 11:35 AM
Words or phrases in bold print are emphasis added by me.
Page 32 - 21. Tests or retrieves which are not to be considered by the Judges at the final summing up should not be held.

Page 48 - 13) Before arriving at their final placings in any stake, the Judges should make direct comparisons, series for series, between all of their dogs under consideration for those places.

Page 49 - Section 22 of the “STANDARD’’ states:“The Judges must judge the dogs for (a) their natural abilities, including their memory, intelligence, attention, nose, courage, perseverance and style, and (b) their abilities acquired through training, including steadiness, control, response to direction and delivery.’’


Page 50 - Natural Abilities(1) Accurate marking, or memory of “falls’’ is of paramount importance. However, this does not imply that dogs which excel in marking shall not be severely penalized, or even eliminated, for deficiencies in, or a lack of the other required “abilities.’’

Page 54 - Abilities Acquired Through Training. The other group of attributes to be considered by Judges includes those abilities which dogs acquire through training. The importance of these acquired qualities varies in different stakes, for example: A “reasonable’’ degree of steadiness and general obedience are the requirements in Derby stakes. A greater degree of steadiness and some degree of the other qualities are expected in the Qualifying stake. There should be expectation of full refinement in “acquired attributes’’ in those stakes carrying championship points.

The passages quoted above would seem NOT to support judging of blinds as pass/fail. They also support penalizing poor performance on blind retrieves in the final decisions of placement at all times, not just as a tie breaker.

To address the original poster's topic, My personal philosophy is to try to set tests which are increasingly challenging over the entirety of the trial and pass fair judgement on all of the dogs. My personal experience and success in All Age competition is limited. As such, I only accept Minor stake assignments. -Paul

Ken Barton
03-10-2020, 01:20 PM
So, if you set up tests with increasing difficulty then the LB more difficult than first series land marks increasing more with WB then water marks most difficult?

paul young
03-10-2020, 02:22 PM
In a sense, yes, but judging blinds is very different than judging marks. I don't think it's possible to make a direct comparison between the two. I believe A 'softball' land blind does not aid in separation of the relative work among the field of dogs, so the land blind is usually pretty stiff, with the water blind being more so.

First series marking tests are always a concern; if the test is too difficult or too easy it sets things in motion that are not desirable. If I have to be wrong, I would prefer that they were too easy. Once dogs are eliminated, there's no going back. My experience is in judging Derby and Qualifying stakes, so I try to be generous on callbacks.
It's always nice to have more than a handful of dogs going into the last series.- Paul

Ken Barton
03-10-2020, 07:48 PM
Sometimes I feel that, like a lot of things, judging field trials is somewhat of an art form. Looking at the numbers and maybe also the quality of the field, along with quality of the grounds and the daylight hours and wind and weather conditions. Like the guy trying to walk with a ballon full of water between his legs, squeeze too little and it falls out, squeeze too much and the ballon breaks. It’s certainly a balance trying to balance the importance of the marks and the degree of difficulty with the blinds. Sometimes you miss and adjusting in stride is necessary. Flat fields with little cover to severe terrain and lots of cover and smallish tank ponds to mind blowing technical pond complexes. 90-100 entry Opens and 75-90 entry AM’s compared to 30-50 stake entries. Balance can be difficult.

Ted Shih
03-10-2020, 09:58 PM
I am disappointed that in a portion of the forum devoted to judging that in this thread only one person has seen fit to note the Rule Book - Paul. If you can’t reference the Rules, essentially you are saying I get to pick who I want the way I want. Which to me is nothing less than anarchy - or laziness.

Daren Galloway
03-10-2020, 10:23 PM
I am disappointed that in a portion of the forum devoted to judging that in this thread only one person has seen fit to note the Rule Book - Paul. If you canít reference the Rules, essentially you are saying I get to pick who I want the way I want. Which to me is nothing less than anarchy - or laziness.

You obviously have something specific in mind, why don't you share it with us? The rulebook supplies judges with lot of latitude to determine many things, more than I'm going to type out here, but size of AOF, the severity of penalties outside those outlined at the end of the book, and many other things.

Judging can never be precise; it is not an exact science, merely an art, and simply because there are so many shades of gray between black and white.

ďThe Judges must judge the dogs for (a) their natural abilities, including their memory, intelligence, attention, nose, courage, perseverance and style, and (b) their abilities acquired through training, including steadiness, control, response to direction and delivery.íí

(1) Accurate marking, or memory of ďfallsíí is of paramount importance. However, this does not imply that dogs which excel in marking shall not be severely penalized, or even eliminated, for deficiencies in, or a lack of the other required ďabilities.íí

So, where are you going with this Ted?

Ted Shih
03-10-2020, 10:28 PM
I have no preset direction. BUT

- If we are going to talk about judging; and
- If, this process is to be informative to people who do not judge

then how could you possibly comment without specific reference to the Rule Book?

Ken Barton
03-11-2020, 07:06 AM
Ok forget about balance and other esoteric things. Hereís one I get opposing views on, if you throw a PB during a WB and you donít pick it up is it a marking test or at least a combination and do the rules for a marking test apply like no dry guns in the field. For instance could you add a 2nd gun on the land side of the blind to influence the dog to not get in the water?

Daren Galloway
03-11-2020, 11:39 AM
Ok forget about balance and other esoteric things. Hereís one I get opposing views on, if you throw a PB during a WB and you donít pick it up is it a marking test or at least a combination and do the rules for a marking test apply like no dry guns in the field. For instance could you add a 2nd gun on the land side of the blind to influence the dog to not get in the water?

No it's a diversion. The book is clear on that

Ken Barton
03-12-2020, 08:58 AM
I agree so it’s not a marking test, but because a mark is thrown some judges think that no dry guns rule is in effect and if that were true then that opens the door for an honor, seemingly.

Ken Barton
03-12-2020, 09:01 AM
Excuse me a bird is thrown.

Daren Galloway
03-12-2020, 10:54 AM
I agree so it’s not a marking test, but because a mark is thrown some judges think that no dry guns rule is in effect and if that were true then that opens the door for an honor, seemingly.

Those judges would be wrong. The rule is no dry guns in a marking test. Its not a marking test therefore it doesnt apply. It's a diversion and the extra gun would be an additional diversion.

Ted Shih
03-13-2020, 08:49 PM
Ok forget about balance and other esoteric things. Hereís one I get opposing views on, if you throw a PB during a WB and you donít pick it up is it a marking test or at least a combination and do the rules for a marking test apply like no dry guns in the field. For instance could you add a 2nd gun on the land side of the blind to influence the dog to not get in the water?

Guys,

1. If this portion of the Forum, which is entitled the RULE BOOKS, is to elevate the discussion about the Rule Book, you must reference the Rule Book. Otherwise, it is simply a forum for each of us to simply state our beliefs about how things should or should not be. So, I would again implore each of you to reference the Rule Book.

2. I think the hypothetical scenarios need to be more clearly stated to make the key issue more apparent. What exactly is the question?
- Is it that you can't have a dry gun on a blind?
- Is it that throwing a poison bird that is not picked up makes a blind a marking test?
- Is it something else entirely?

I can't really tell

I do know the portion of the Rule Book that applies. And I suspect that all of you do, too. Page 32

Diversion Bird: A diversionary bird or birds, (but not more than two) may be used as a diversion in a blind retrieve, but only if the diversionary bird (or birds) is/are thrown or shot so that the running dog has a clear view of each such diversionary bird as it is thrown or shot. No bird which the running dog does not see may be placed and hidden on the general path to a blind. Nothing in this provision precludes the use of visible flyer crates, bagged birds, placed at the location of previous gun stations, or bird throwers as diversions from the blind.

Key points
1. Clearly you can have a bird thrown. And the rule does not require that the bird be picked up.
2. You can have people in the field - "bird throwers"
- Query: does this mean a person in the field on a blind must throw a bird? Or can a person that simply sits in the field (but does not throw a bird) constitute a "bird thrower"?

Daren Galloway
03-13-2020, 11:00 PM
Guys,

1. If this portion of the Forum, which is entitled the RULE BOOKS, is to elevate the discussion about the Rule Book, you must reference the Rule Book. Otherwise, it is simply a forum for each of us to simply state our beliefs about how things should or should not be. So, I would again implore each of you to reference the Rule Book.

2. I think the hypothetical scenarios need to be more clearly stated to make the key issue more apparent. What exactly is the question?
- Is it that you can't have a dry gun on a blind?
- Is it that throwing a poison bird that is not picked up makes a blind a marking test?
- Is it something else entirely?

I can't really tell

I do know the portion of the Rule Book that applies. And I suspect that all of you do, too. Page 32

Diversion Bird: A diversionary bird or birds, (but not more than two) may be used as a diversion in a blind retrieve, but only if the diversionary bird (or birds) is/are thrown or shot so that the running dog has a clear view of each such diversionary bird as it is thrown or shot. No bird which the running dog does not see may be placed and hidden on the general path to a blind. Nothing in this provision precludes the use of visible flyer crates, bagged birds, placed at the location of previous gun stations, or bird throwers as diversions from the blind.

Key points
1. Clearly you can have a bird thrown. And the rule does not require that the bird be picked up.
2. You can have people in the field - "bird throwers"
- Query: does this mean a person in the field on a blind must throw a bird? Or can a person that simply sits in the field (but does not throw a bird) constitute a "bird thrower"?

Judging can never be precise; it is not an exact science, merely an art, and simply because there are so many shades of gray between black and white. At the risk of over-simplification, it might be stated that the primary purpose of a retriever is to get the birds to hand as quickly as possible in a pleasing, obedient manner and all faults stem from a deviation from this.

Here you go Ted, a direct quotation of the Book, that applies specifically to this thread. Judging is not an exact science, merely an art. That in itself implies a philosophy a judge will have about certain ideas. This forum is about rules, but the book admits its not a science, so isn't a discussion on a "philosophy" prudent?

Ken Barton
03-14-2020, 10:09 AM
No Dry Guns should be stationed in the field and visible to the dog while a marking test is run, or while the marking portion of a combination mark/blind test is run.

I think this rule also may be used by some to question the legality. A bird is thrown but not picked up it some interpretate this as qualifying as a mark therefore a dry gun not allowed. Also if this new forum is to only to discuss the present rules as they exist then it will probably be shot lived. These gray areas do exist every week seemingly and I thought that this one has been around for a while and well known to a lot of judges and besides the Judges Corner and word of mouth I thought this was a good way to gain insight on this, to me a gray area although to some a concrete black and white.

Ken Barton
03-14-2020, 10:30 AM
Also I in no way meant to infer any intent in any discussion to be outside the existing rules but I believe that discussion of differences in the interpretations by judges can be expected in the real world and in no way find this anarchy.

Ted Shih
03-14-2020, 07:19 PM
Also I in no way meant to infer any intent in any discussion to be outside the existing rules but I believe that discussion of differences in the interpretations by judges can be expected in the real world and in no way find this anarchy.

If you - and others - insist on "discussion of differences in the interpretations by judges" - I call that anarchy. You are clearly familiar with the Rule Book. Why not refer to it, so that people know what you are "interpreting"?

Ted Shih
03-14-2020, 07:20 PM
I agree so itís not a marking test, but because a mark is thrown some judges think that no dry guns rule is in effect and if that were true then that opens the door for an honor, seemingly.


​I have no idea what you are saying here.

Ted Shih
03-14-2020, 07:31 PM
A bird can be:

- A diversion only (it is not picked up)
- A diversion and a mark (it is picked up)
- The prohibition for dry guns only applies to a marking test

You can have a bird that serves only as a diversion for a blind (that is, the bird is thrown, but not retrieved). See RB 32

Diversion Bird: A diversionary bird or birds, (but not more than two) may be used as a diversion in a blind retrieve, but only if the diversionary bird (or birds) is/are thrown or shot so that the running dog has a clear view of each such diversionary bird as it is thrown or shot. No bird which the running dog does not see may be placed and hidden on the general path to a blind. Nothing in this provision precludes the use of visible flyer crates, bagged birds, placed at the location of previous gun stations, or bird throwers as diversions from the blind.

A mark is a bird that is thrown - and should be retrieved. See RB 50

Accurate marking, or memory of “falls’’ is of paramount importance. However, this does not imply that dogs which excel in marking shall not be severely penalized, or even eliminated, for deficiencies in, or a lack of the other required “abilities.’’ However, in Derby stakes the ability to “mark’’ is all-important and dogs that are handled on a mark in a Derby Stake shall be eliminated. Even in our most exacting stakes, tests are usually so devised that “marked’’ birds constitute a large percentage of the retrieves by which each dog’s performance is judged.


The prohibition against "Dry guns" (guns that are in the field for a marking test, but do not throw a bird) applies only to marking tests. RB 30

No Dry Guns should be stationed in the field and visible to the dog while a marking test is run, or while the marking portion of a combination mark/blind test is run.

moscowitz
03-15-2020, 05:08 AM
My question is marking paramount anymore as the rules state. To get to the last series it is not the first that gets you there. It’s the blinds. Am I wrong?

I judge field trials 8 points. I try to do my best but after a judging assignment I beat my self up as to how I could’ve done a better job. And then there are the complainers who say you suck as a judge.

MooseGooser
03-15-2020, 09:48 AM
If this portion of the Forum, which is entitled the RULE BOOKS, is to elevate the discussion about the Rule Book, you must reference the Rule Book. Otherwise, it is simply a forum for each of us to simply state our beliefs about how things should or should not be. So, I would again implore each of you to reference the Rule Book.


Those are not my words.. But I think they grasp the intent of the forums.. If that intent isnt acccoplished,,then IMHO,, the new forums are a waste of time.. OPINION can be discussed on the main page.. We know how that goes.. Lets try hard to make this work! Great information so far,,Lets try to keep the standard high! I thank the Judges ,and respectful handlers who have volunteered to participate..

Mike.

Reginald
03-15-2020, 11:10 AM
My question is marking paramount anymore as the rules state. To get to the last series it is not the first that gets you there. It’s the blinds. Am I wrong?

I judge field trials 8 points. I try to do my best but after a judging assignment I beat my self up as to how I could’ve done a better job. And then there are the complainers who say you suck as a judge.

MHO is yes you are wrong but don't beat yourself up over it. Get through the 1st series of a 70-90 AA stake where you go down to 25-30 dogs now you survive the next two series when you are one of 12-15 dogs looming for the WM's.

We all ask ourselves what could we have done differently or better. I failed miserably as a judge last week doing an AA stake where we had a long retired punch bird where the first 15-18 dogs couldn't see the throw. I failed in that I should have put my foot down with my co judge and insisted on the white ribbon I asked for or moving the gunner inward toward the sun. On both occasions my co judge said no and I said OK. HUGE FAILURE on my part.

Dogs that run early should NOT be seen as "sacrificial lambs". Those owners paid their $90 just like the later running dogs, why should they not have similar opportunities to have success. As of today, I have one more assignment in 2020 which I will do my best not to let the early running dogs down again!!!!

Mike W.
03-15-2020, 03:38 PM
Two things that absolutely blow me away that are all too common:

1) Carrying dogs to who FAIL a blind, because of a great 1st series. A failure is not just a "bad bird". A failure is a failure and you should be eliminated (Rule Book under "Response to Direction" under "Abilities Acquired Through Training" (pg 55 of 2017 book). The book does not define fail, but most of us know it when we see it.

2) The blatant disregard for Style by the judging community.

Dan Wegner
04-13-2020, 12:52 PM
2) The blatant disregard for Style by the judging community.

Mike, I agree, but it works both ways. While none of us like to see a dog who lacks style, I feel a stylish dog should not be given a pass on poor marking just because he/she is stylish, but it seems to happen every weekend. It seems many are willing to drop a slower or less stylish dog for 5 or 6 ever widening loops in and out of the fall area which takes several minutes and justify it as he/she stumbled on the bird. But a faster more stylish dog goes out and has an identical hunt but does so in less than a minute because he/she covers ground quickly and that dog is back. Style and speed should not make up for poor marking, but we see it all the time.

EdA
04-23-2020, 02:23 AM
Mike, I agree, but it works both ways. While none of us like to see a dog who lacks style, I feel a stylish dog should not be given a pass on poor marking just because he/she is stylish, but it seems to happen every weekend. It seems many are willing to drop a slower or less stylish dog for 5 or 6 ever widening loops in and out of the fall area which takes several minutes and justify it as he/she stumbled on the bird. But a faster more stylish dog goes out and has an identical hunt but does so in less than a minute because he/she covers ground quickly and that dog is back. Style and speed should not make up for poor marking, but we see it all the time.to Section 29 of the “STANDARD’’ with respect to the undesirability of conspicuously intensive lining.What precisely constitutes the “area of the ‘fall’ ” defies accurate definition; yet, at the outset of every test, each Judge must arbitrarily define its hypothetical boundaries for himself, and for each bird in that test, so that he can judge whether dogs have remained within his own concept of “area of the ‘fall,’ ’’ as well as how far they have wandered away from “the area’’ and how much cover they have disturbed unnecessarily. In determining these arbitrary and hypothetical boundaries of the “area of the ‘fall,’ ’’ due considerations should be given to various factors: (1) the type, the height and the uniformity of the cover, (2) light conditions, (3) direction of the prevailing wind and its intensity, (4) length of the various falls, (5) the speed of the individual dogs, (6) whether there is a change in cover (as from stubble to plowed ground, or to ripe alfalfa, or to machine-picked corn, etc.) or whether the “fall’’ is beyond a hedge, across a road, or over a ditch, etc., and, finally, and most important, (7) whether one is establishing the “area of the ‘fall’ ’’ for a single, or for the first bird a dog goes for, in multiple retrieves, or for the second or the third bird since each of these should differ from the others.

Clearly the area of the fall has multiple influences but #5 is often overlooked, it means that the area of the fall for fast dogs is different than the area of the fall for slow dogs.

Ted Shih
04-24-2020, 08:45 AM
Mike, I agree, but it works both ways. While none of us like to see a dog who lacks style, I feel a stylish dog should not be given a pass on poor marking just because he/she is stylish, but it seems to happen every weekend. It seems many are willing to drop a slower or less stylish dog for 5 or 6 ever widening loops in and out of the fall area which takes several minutes and justify it as he/she stumbled on the bird. But a faster more stylish dog goes out and has an identical hunt but does so in less than a minute because he/she covers ground quickly and that dog is back. Style and speed should not make up for poor marking, but we see it all the time.

Dan

This has not been my experience.

Ted