Judging Philosophy Part 2 [Archive] - RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF

: Judging Philosophy Part 2



Ted Shih
03-15-2020, 08:47 PM
The previous thread on Judging Philosophy devolved away from the original intent (as they often do), so I thought I would try anew (with reference to the Rule Book)

The previous post Here is my judging philosophy


The Rule Book states that:


The function of a Non-Slip Retriever is to seek and retrieve "fallen'' game when ordered to do so. He should sit quietly on line or in the blind, walk at heel, or assume any station designated by his handler until sent to retrieve. When ordered, a dog should retrieve quickly and briskly without unduly disturbing too much ground, and should deliver tenderly to hand. He should then await further orders. Accurate marking is of primary importance. A dog which marks the fall of a bird, uses the wind, follows a strong cripple, and will take direction from his handler is of great value. RB26.


It also states:


At the risk of over-simplification, it might be stated that the primary purpose of a retriever is to get the birds to hand as quickly as possible in a pleasing, obedient manner and all faults stem from a deviation from this. RB48.


The Rule Book encourages Judges to start with an idea of what they consider to be the characteristics of a winning dog.


It is recommended that a Judge should have clearly in mind, and for each test, precisely what type of performance he expects, since such work will merit a high rating in his records. Then he should observe, and record, in what respects and to what degrees the performances by individual dogs have either exceeded or fallen short of that previously established "par,'' in each test. Hence, when the stake is completed, several Judges will arrive at their final decision about placings on the basis of which dog, relatively, did better work than another in each of the several series. RB47


The Rule Book notes that judging is an art, not a science.


Judging can never be precise; it is not an exact science, merely an art, and simply because there are so many shades of gray between black and white. At the risk of over-simplification, it might be stated that the primary purpose of a retriever is to get the birds to hand as quickly as possible in a pleasing, obedient manner and all faults stem from a deviation from this. RB 47


If judging is an art, not a science, then it should not be surprising that within the confines of the Rule Book, there is room for subjective interpretation.


As a practical matter, Judging is driven by a number of variables: a) time allotted; b) entry size; c) quality of the grounds; d) environmental conditions (e.g. heat); e) quality of the help; and a number of other factors.


If we focus on the Open, and assume that there are no practical impediments, then.


1) I like a triple or quad for my land marks, a double land blind for my second series, a water blind for my third series, and a triple or quad for my water marks.


2) I make my tests as hard as I can to generate separation in the field. But, “to the extent that time permits, Judges should be generous in their "callbacks'' for additional series.” RB 47. I am cognizant that people spend a lot of time and money to participate in field trials, so I try to carry dogs, if I can.


3) I do not like pass/fail blinds. (Typically, this means a tight keyhole of one sort or another). I want to judge the blind as an entirety - beginning, middle, and end. This view is supported by the Rule Book. “In general, the performance in the test should be considered in its entirety; an occasional failure to take and hold a direction may be considered a minor fault, if offset by several other very good responses.” RB 54


4) When considering placements, I will go bird by bird. Because there are more marks than blinds, this tends to result in a higher emphasis on marks than blinds. “Accurate marking is of primary importance.” RB 28. The Rule Book does not say that “Accurate Marking” is of sole consideration. I believe that particularly in the Open, we are looking for the complete retriever: a dog that can mark, take directions, and be stylish. So, I have placed dogs that I thought were more complete retrievers over dogs that had better marks.


5) However, I will also look at difficulty of a bird. There have been occasions where a blind was harder than any of the marks, and that blind would therefore factor in heavily into my decision about placements.


6) I have dropped dogs for line manners (typically stickiness or extreme creeping). I have lowered the placement for dogs for line manners (typically noise).


7) I have dropped dogs for style. I have lowered the placements of dogs for style. (There is a reason that the Rule Book mentions “style” eight (8) times.)


8) I don’t think that I could make any broad statements about placements other than this: “the primary purpose of a retriever is to get the birds to hand as quickly as possible in a pleasing, obedient manner and all faults stem from a deviation from this.” RB 48

That’s the dog I am looking to have win and/or place.

Ted

Reginald
03-18-2020, 06:43 AM
1) I like a triple or quad for my land marks, a double land blind for my second series, a water blind for my third series, and a triple or quad for my water marks.

Why a double land blind?

Daren Galloway
03-18-2020, 11:36 AM
The previous thread on Judging Philosophy devolved away from the original intent (as they often do), so I thought I would try anew (with reference to the Rule Book)

The previous post Here is my judging philosophy


The Rule Book states that:


The function of a Non-Slip Retriever is to seek and retrieve "fallen'' game when ordered to do so. He should sit quietly on line or in the blind, walk at heel, or assume any station designated by his handler until sent to retrieve. When ordered, a dog should retrieve quickly and briskly without unduly disturbing too much ground, and should deliver tenderly to hand. He should then await further orders. Accurate marking is of primary importance. A dog which marks the fall of a bird, uses the wind, follows a strong cripple, and will take direction from his handler is of great value. RB26.


It also states:


At the risk of over-simplification, it might be stated that the primary purpose of a retriever is to get the birds to hand as quickly as possible in a pleasing, obedient manner and all faults stem from a deviation from this. RB48.


The Rule Book encourages Judges to start with an idea of what they consider to be the characteristics of a winning dog.


It is recommended that a Judge should have clearly in mind, and for each test, precisely what type of performance he expects, since such work will merit a high rating in his records. Then he should observe, and record, in what respects and to what degrees the performances by individual dogs have either exceeded or fallen short of that previously established "par,'' in each test. Hence, when the stake is completed, several Judges will arrive at their final decision about placings on the basis of which dog, relatively, did better work than another in each of the several series. RB47


The Rule Book notes that judging is an art, not a science.


Judging can never be precise; it is not an exact science, merely an art, and simply because there are so many shades of gray between black and white. At the risk of over-simplification, it might be stated that the primary purpose of a retriever is to get the birds to hand as quickly as possible in a pleasing, obedient manner and all faults stem from a deviation from this. RB 47


If judging is an art, not a science, then it should not be surprising that within the confines of the Rule Book, there is room for subjective interpretation.


As a practical matter, Judging is driven by a number of variables: a) time allotted; b) entry size; c) quality of the grounds; d) environmental conditions (e.g. heat); e) quality of the help; and a number of other factors.


If we focus on the Open, and assume that there are no practical impediments, then.


1) I like a triple or quad for my land marks, a double land blind for my second series, a water blind for my third series, and a triple or quad for my water marks.


2) I make my tests as hard as I can to generate separation in the field. But, “to the extent that time permits, Judges should be generous in their "callbacks'' for additional series.” RB 47. I am cognizant that people spend a lot of time and money to participate in field trials, so I try to carry dogs, if I can.


3) I do not like pass/fail blinds. (Typically, this means a tight keyhole of one sort or another). I want to judge the blind as an entirety - beginning, middle, and end. This view is supported by the Rule Book. “In general, the performance in the test should be considered in its entirety; an occasional failure to take and hold a direction may be considered a minor fault, if offset by several other very good responses.” RB 54


4) When considering placements, I will go bird by bird. Because there are more marks than blinds, this tends to result in a higher emphasis on marks than blinds. “Accurate marking is of primary importance.” RB 28. The Rule Book does not say that “Accurate Marking” is of sole consideration. I believe that particularly in the Open, we are looking for the complete retriever: a dog that can mark, take directions, and be stylish. So, I have placed dogs that I thought were more complete retrievers over dogs that had better marks.


5) However, I will also look at difficulty of a bird. There have been occasions where a blind was harder than any of the marks, and that blind would therefore factor in heavily into my decision about placements.


6) I have dropped dogs for line manners (typically stickiness or extreme creeping). I have lowered the placement for dogs for line manners (typically noise).


7) I have dropped dogs for style. I have lowered the placements of dogs for style. (There is a reason that the Rule Book mentions “style” eight (8) times.)


8) I don’t think that I could make any broad statements about placements other than this: “the primary purpose of a retriever is to get the birds to hand as quickly as possible in a pleasing, obedient manner and all faults stem from a deviation from this.” RB 48

That’s the dog I am looking to have win and/or place.

Ted


Basically exactly what I said on the other thread Ted. haha

Ted Shih
03-18-2020, 12:24 PM
Basically exactly what I said on the other thread Ted. haha

I think that stretches the words "basically" and "exactly" beyond what the dictionary permits

Ted Shih
03-18-2020, 12:29 PM
1) I like a triple or quad for my land marks, a double land blind for my second series, a water blind for my third series, and a triple or quad for my water marks.

Why a double land blind?

I think it is difficult to create much separation on a single land blind absent:
a) great terrain;
b) a good cross wind; and/or a
c) poison bird/mark

You rarely get a and b. I prefer to save c for the water blind.

I think a double blind creates the action I want

Ted

Daren Galloway
03-18-2020, 01:17 PM
I think that stretches the words "basically" and "exactly" beyond what the dictionary permits

Well we quoted the same rules, so.....

Ken Barton
03-20-2020, 02:14 PM
That was basically what I had in mind.

martaperal57
06-22-2020, 09:34 AM
I have a important question, ¿why a double land blind?

drunkenpoacher
06-22-2020, 09:40 AM
I have a important question, ¿why a double land blind?
More answers, not a lot of time used.

Reginald
06-22-2020, 04:25 PM
I have a important question, ¿why a double land blind?

Ted answered your question a few posts earlier back on 3-18