Penalty for excessive lining.. [Archive] - RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF

: Penalty for excessive lining..



MooseGooser
05-10-2020, 09:13 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcULmHsNl5w

In a thread on one of the other sections, I posted this video of us running a master test. The topic of the other thread was" penalty excessive lining"..
One of the answers given was that the excessive lining rule, only pertained to marks,,and not Blinds.. I realise this, but in the AKC hunt test rule book, it states this..

IV. The final attribute to be evaluated by Judges is Trainability, that includes those abilities dogs acquire through training (steadiness, control, response and delivery). While not to be underestimated, acquired abilities must be viewed in a different perspective, being of somewhat lesser importance than natural abilities even though a Master Hunter must exhibit all that is desirable in a
finished Retriever. The level that acquired abilities are developed will vary in different Test categories; for
example, a reasonable degree of steadiness and general
obedience are the requirements in the Junior Hunting Test. A greater degree of steadiness and some degree of the other qualities are expected in the Senior Hunting Test. There shall be expectation of full refinement in acquired attributes in Master Hunting Tests.

The rules also state this..


Lower scores, even to the extent of grading a dog zero (0)on Trainability based on a lack of response, may be the result of thefollowing: (a) not taking the direction originally given by the handler, (b)not continuing in that direction for a considerable distance, (c) failure tostop promptly and popping-up and looking back for directions, (d) failure tostop promptly and look to the handler when signaled, (e) failure to take a newdirection, i.e., a new cast, when given and (f) failure to continue in that newdirection for a considerable distance.


I fully expected a tap on the shoulder, after struggling with the dog on the line,, then after being sent, got a Poor Initial Line.. Remember,, Master test..

Interested in Judges comments..

Old School Labs
05-10-2020, 10:38 AM
I recognize where that test was at. I ran my buddy's bitch as he was judging the other Master test, and we lined it. :D

paul young
05-10-2020, 01:34 PM
Poor blind. Not a 0, but I would give it 3. The 3 points are for the last 1/3 of the blind. As you stated you had a poor initial line. Then she got in the water late, and wanted to head out to sea.

Now, that is a water blind. There are at least 2 other blinds to score in a Master test. I don't know this for a fact, but chances are good that the other 2 blinds were run before this one. If the other two were 7 or above, you would satisfy the trainability requirement of an average of >5.0, but you would need some pretty high trainability scores in the marking portion of the test for it to work out for you at the end of the test. -Paul

LabLover45
05-10-2020, 05:05 PM
I have juded in the past and wanted dogs to stay on a mat when the birds were released .Ionly wanted to see the dogs steady at the line and work with the handler. some of the dogs could not come onto the mat as they were not trained to deal with being on a mat. to me it is poor line training. trainers need to work on line control if the dogs take a pil and can be handled i had no problem. We just put a high dog down &14 who was a big time breaker whick i never knew what dog i had at the trail. He has been our most talehted dog so far in this game and worked exteremy hard on the line mannors but did not work. So to all handlers work on line manners with and without a e collar as you will not be as frustrated as i was.The flip side is when he worked with me the outcome and feeling was great.

fishduck
05-11-2020, 06:51 AM
Haven't judged in almost a year and am so behind with the Covid 19 forced hiatus that it may be a year before I can judge again. So take this with a grain of salt. Intensive lining is mentioned in the rulebook and I certainly enforce the rule. As a judge you need to be very careful not to use this snippet to penalize good handlers. The ultimate teamwork IMHO shows up when a dog has forgotten/missed a mark and the handler is able to "talk" them into it. Some would call this "intensive lining" but when done quickly and efficiently it is artwork. My definition of intensive lining is the handler that spends a solid minute fussing with lining the dog. Often the judge could walk out and pick up the bird before the handler kicks the dog off. This is not "pleasing to the eye" using field trial terminology or demonstrates acceptable "trainability" or "marking" using hunt test terms. As usual this opinion is worth what was paid for it.

paul young
05-11-2020, 07:47 AM
Sorry if I misunderstood. I thought Gooser wanted the blind in the video assessed. -Paul

To address intensive or conspicuously lining on Marks, I think Mark Land defined it about as well as can be done.
"My definition of intensive lining is the handler that spends a solid minute fussing with lining the dog. Often the judge could walk out and pick up the bird before the handler kicks the dog off. "

MooseGooser
05-11-2020, 09:04 AM
Sorry for confusion..Typical with my posts..

Paul answered with what I was looking for.. I posted the same video in the FT section, because someone asked for a video of an example of excessive lining..
One of the responders noted that the FT rule only applies to MARKS..

I posted it again here with exerpts from the rule book about trainability requirements , and was asking if my excessive fiddling with the dog before the send,,and the consequence that followed with a poor initial line,, and TWO casts with a Verbal back to get her in the water, would constitute a penalty for disobedience as I tried to line,, and when I sent,, the line wasnt in the right direction..

SO,, could excessive lining be a reason a judge would drop a dog on a BLIND? A trainability issue with the dogs resonse to being "Lined" before the send?



This performance from the dog wasnt common.. it took me by surprise.. I THINK,, it was because Two of the marks of the triple that was just run, were really tight to that Blinds location,, and she was nervouse about where I wanted to send her.. None the less,, I was surprised we were carried..

MooseGooser
05-11-2020, 09:15 AM
I guess an easier way to ask question:

Was I in trouble because of issues lining the dog, before I even sent? Would any of you as Judges written down a mark down for those actions? And if so,, what rule would apply

fishduck
05-12-2020, 10:40 AM
I guess an easier way to ask question:

Was I in trouble because of issues lining the dog, before I even sent? Would any of you as Judges written down a mark down for those actions? And if so,, what rule would apply

Sorry I sent this in another direction. Regarding the redirect: I would ding you in trainability on the blind before the send. As with most things involving trainability, it usually gets worse. The PIL is the next cut, followed by getting in the water late and some difficulty getting back on line. Overall, it was not a 0 and the other 2 blinds give you a chance to improve to a "passing grade".

Hunt'EmUp
05-12-2020, 03:20 PM
.

SO,, could excessive lining be a reason a judge would drop a dog on a BLIND? A trainability issue with the dogs resonse to being "Lined" before the send?

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The reason wouldn't be excessive lining, if a dog was failed; I believe it would more likely be of control-trainablity; not listening to the handler; perhaps line manner issues. While you are lining a dog, you can bet the handler is giving commands, if the dog is not taking those commands Trainabilty scoring goes lower and lower. I would say it would need to be more extreme than this; as this dog is calm and somewhat listening. Imagen a wild dog not listening, not sitting, repeated commands, handler bordering on intimidation; in such a case it would be noted in a judges sheet and team could be dismissed. However while there is a bunch of lining in this example, it's not overly distracting that I believe a judge would comment on it. Most of the time with excessive lining the handler is just digging himself into a hole, that will become highly relevant throughout rest of the blind, as was seen in the example. Dog didn't want water, handler is trying give a line but dog is bouncing dog back and forth, the dog isn't going to commit. When released dog does what the dog was already telling the handler he was going to do, skirt the water, but now dogs is further away; out of the corridor and harder to control (handler ~2 casts and a verbal to get in water). Then dog still won't commit to a line in the water and isn't carrying casts. Handler gives a few more whistles and a verbal and finally convinces dog to keep water-line and the end of the blind improves. A very Rough MH level blind, doesn't need anything mentioned about the lining, as enough was seen throughout the entire blind. Not a 0 but We will need to see 2 significantly better blinds. What is important in this blind is the dog did get in the water and the dog did eventually take the line, many other dogs would be lost at those points, dog improves at the finish; so there is some team-work enough to look at another blind or 2.

Eric Johnson
06-30-2020, 03:37 PM
I concur with Mark. In fact, my co-judge and I failed a dog because the handler was worrying enough about the line to the mark that we turned to each other and wondered if the man thought the bird was a blind. I would guess the chap spent about 90 seconds assuring a perfect line to the mark. I now feel as though he felt the dog had not seen the fall and so was trying to pull off a bit of magic. I say this because I have a dog that is near-sighted (proven by Auburn Vet School) and we've tried this a time or two in training.