Is Finger Snapping Considered Intimidation? [Archive] - RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF

: Is Finger Snapping Considered Intimidation?



J. Marti
05-30-2020, 08:13 PM
A friend and I, both novices in training and handling for senior and above levels, have been told by someone else finger snapping is considered to be intimidation of the dog. My friend uses it in training for the push to indicate her dog is lined up correctly on the mat and looking in the right direction.

Intimidation: yes, no, maybe, it depends.

tigerfan
05-30-2020, 09:52 PM
A friend and I, both novices in training and handling for senior and above levels, have been told by someone else finger snapping is considered to be intimidation of the dog. My friend uses it in training for the push to indicate her dog is lined up correctly on the mat and looking in the right direction.

Intimidation: yes, no, maybe, it depends.
No!!
Have the "someone else" to show you the rule pertaining to intimidation/finger snapping :)

birddogn_tc
06-01-2020, 10:39 AM
I don't think you can do it as marks are going off in AKC HT's or Trials. But just for lining the dog up to be sent on a blind or mark, then I think that is acceptable as I don't recall it in the rulebook.

Windjammer
06-02-2020, 07:22 AM
In my first Master Hunt test some years back, I received a warning for finger snapping. I will admit, I probably snapped pretty loudly, although I didn't realize it at the time. I was given a warning in the second series. I was given another warning after the third series. I'll be honest, I had trained using finger snapping for "heel" for so long, that it was very tough not to do it (loudly), which caused the second warning. The co-judge, who I knew well, pulled me aside and said "the only thing between you and your first pass is her (judge) and I. Stop snapping and you'll make it". The fourth series was a blind, and then a land triple. I ran the series with my hands in my pockets, except to take the bird, and for casting on the blind. I have since reduced my snapping.

I actually ran into the judge about a month ago. We talked about training, ect. She still remembers the finger snapping after these years. We more or less joked about it, reflecting back to the HT.

I have seen a judge tell a handler to tuck their lead all the way in, correct a handler for taking off their hat, and for jingling their whistles (different handlers, different judges). I think the lesson is that some judges pick up on certain things that others don't.

MissSkeeter
06-02-2020, 09:51 PM
In my first Master Hunt test some years back, I received a warning for finger snapping. I will admit, I probably snapped pretty loudly, although I didn't realize it at the time. I was given a warning in the second series. I was given another warning after the third series. I'll be honest, I had trained using finger snapping for "heel" for so long, that it was very tough not to do it (loudly), which caused the second warning. The co-judge, who I knew well, pulled me aside and said "the only thing between you and your first pass is her (judge) and I. Stop snapping and you'll make it". The fourth series was a blind, and then a land triple. I ran the series with my hands in my pockets, except to take the bird, and for casting on the blind. I have since reduced my snapping.

I actually ran into the judge about a month ago. We talked about training, ect. She still remembers the finger snapping after these years. We more or less joked about it, reflecting back to the HT.

I have seen a judge tell a handler to tuck their lead all the way in, correct a handler for taking off their hat, and for jingling their whistles (different handlers, different judges). I think the lesson is that some judges pick up on certain things that others don't.

Yes finger snapping is considered against the rule that the handler must be silent after signal for the marks until released by the judge.
Section 6 of the rule book:
" The handler of the working dog shall remain silent from the time handler signals for the first bird to be thrown until the Judges release the dog."

Matt McKenzie
06-03-2020, 06:12 AM
It's always amazing to me what some "judges" choose to focus on.

HoHum's Retrievers
06-03-2020, 08:09 PM
I wouldnt agree with anyone that says finger snapping is intimidating and as a judge I wouldnt mark anyone down for simply snapping fingers. Of course, as already stated to have to be quiet once you call for the birds, so no snapping during that time. Now if you are snapping fingers in your dogs face someone might make a case that is an intimidating gesture. That might be a stretch though.

But intimidation comes in many forms. I once judged a handler that ran several dogs in my master test. He wore buckskin work gloves, but during the honor he took them off and rolled them up tightly and held them in his hand in front of him. I missed it until it was all over and noted it with my co-judge. It was very deliberate and my guess was his dogs may have been whapped in the head with those rolled up gloves. Had another pro tell me once about he had a sticky dog and his fix was a short cattle prod he'd hold behind his back when the dog delivered the birds and if the dog stuck he'd jab that prod in the dogs neck. When he ran 4 senior dogs in my test the next day he held his hand behind his back for each dog. It was a gesture that had an intimidating effect on the sticky dog, but none of the dogs stuck and I had nothing I could hold against him. I've heard of handlers using a lit cigarette in the dogs ear to correct for stickiness so when the dog returned to deliver they'd fire up a smoke on the line. Or using their chain collar to strike the dog and when on theb line they would jingle the change in their pocket just like jingling their chain collar. All of this sounds cruel and I would not use such devices. Just examples of intimidation that a judge really cant prove.

Now do I note finger snapping on a score sheet. If it is excessive I do. Say you snap your fingers 11 times as you are healing from holding blind to the line. That's 11 commands to heal in my opinion. If you verbalize "heal" 11 times I'd bet most judges are going to note it and perhaps nick you a bit in trainability.

Windjammer
06-04-2020, 06:08 AM
Yes finger snapping is considered against the rule that the handler must be silent after signal for the marks until released by the judge.
Section 6 of the rule book:
" The handler of the working dog shall remain silent from the time handler signals for the first bird to be thrown until the Judges release the dog."

I need to clarify something. I was not snapping during the marks. I was snapping my finger, as my dog was returning to the line with the birds. I used to snap either with my right or left hand, to indicate which side I wanted him on (two-sided dog).

Hunt'EmUp
06-05-2020, 12:51 PM
SO finger snapping is not referenced in the Rule Box, neither is leg patting. What is defined is Threatening Gestures - or any form of intimidation made to the dog (which could be open for interpretation. I guess). Not sure how one could snap hard enough for it to be considered threatening. Maybe it's possible ;). Still I believe I would put it under, a nit-picky judge who is making it their business to comment on something that's not supported by the rule book. Happens all the time, best recourse is to simply say sorry judge I didn't realize; then put a mark by that judge in your judge notebook.
I have such notes for a few judges Ex; One got on me for "pointing" out birds with the Gun...Because when I shouldered the gun; I rotated with my dog to "kill the bird". I used it "well like a gun" and the dog moved with me like she should, and was able to see a trixie bird move dogs were missing...Not sure how you don't point out birds when your shooting at them with a gun.

Mark Littlejohn
06-05-2020, 03:36 PM
One got on me for "pointing" out birds with the Gun...Because when I shouldered the gun; I rotated with my dog to "kill the bird". I used it "well like a gun" and the dog moved with me like she should, and was able to see a trixie bird move dogs were missing...Not sure how you don't point out birds when your shooting at them with a gun.

Please tell me you're making this up.... Where does that judge expect you to point the gun? May as well leave it in the rack. My give-a-shitter is about on empty these days. I'll (respectfully) call a judge out on dumb crap like this.

paul young
06-05-2020, 10:38 PM
I'm sure many people have wished they could intimidate a dog by snapping their fingers......:p

If a handler is doing something that is intimidating to a dog, the dog will show that it is being intimidated. Then the Judges have to deal with it as the serious handler fault that it is. That fault speaks specifically about "threatening gestures, or any form of intimidation made to the dog". -Paul

Golddogs
06-10-2020, 03:48 PM
SO finger snapping is not referenced in the Rule Box, neither is leg patting. What is defined is Threatening Gestures - or any form of intimidation made to the dog (which could be open for interpretation. I guess). Not sure how one could snap hard enough for it to be considered threatening. Maybe it's possible ;). Still I believe I would put it under, a nit-picky judge who is making it their business to comment on something that's not supported by the rule book. Happens all the time, best recourse is to simply say sorry judge I didn't realize; then put a mark by that judge in your judge notebook.
I have such notes for a few judges Ex; One got on me for "pointing" out birds with the Gun...Because when I shouldered the gun; I rotated with my dog to "kill the bird". I used it "well like a gun" and the dog moved with me like she should, and was able to see a trixie bird move dogs were missing...Not sure how you don't point out birds when your shooting at them with a gun.

That sounds like someone that has never hunted a day I their life.