Pack Drive
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Thread: Pack Drive

  1. #1
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    Default Pack Drive

    What is it in its simplest denomination.
    In domesticated dogs or wolves in captivity which may not be of the same family

    It is the desire to belong to a group or be pack oriented
    Within that orientation it is the desire or tendency to be led OR
    it is a desire or tendency to lead.

    A lineal pack order is usually seen in captive or domesticated studies.
    In wild wolf packs it is more family oriented,,parent ,sibling type relationship rather than Alpha ,beta, Omega
    Although dominant behaviors exist in both groups.

    An individual can be highly motivated to follow or it can be highly motivated to lead. They both fall under Pack Drive.

    Attributes which affect or influence that Drive
    Focus,,,excitability,,,the other 4 drives,,,sensitivities to the environment
    pete
    The eye can not see what the mind does not know

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    The PACK Drive- "Pack is a portable computing tool that can be used on any Windows or Mac computer. PACK launches an accessible desktop and gives the user access to four engaging activities: CogLink adapted email, a simplified Internet browser, fun single-player games, and a training program for keyboard, mouse, and email use. The adapted desktop and all applications run from the PACK drive when inserted into a Windows or Mac computer's USB drive."

    I hope that helps

    Seriously though, you might like this........

    http://www.volhard.com/pages/canine-...ty-profile.php

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

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    Well Pete, what did you think of the hypotheses proffered in Jack and Wendy's article?

    Perhaps you, Darrin G, Dennis V, or anyone else for that matter, would be willing to offer some input on the integration of this information into the various training programs often being discussed here on the forum ?

    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 11-29-2013 at 02:46 AM.
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

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    John
    I think they are wonderful people.
    I disagree slightly with their definition of prey drive,,, and their pack drive definition is incomplete. Some things are just way to general but I think in many ways they have to be. Just like discussions here should be "in general" unlike a discussion in public with a specific audience. But over all the site is very informative and well done.
    The thing about drive's John is it is like operant conditioning,, it is not necessary to identify them to train a dog. Its just fun to talk about.
    But there are web sites every where that have some sort of misinformation of some kind,,for what ever reason. Or subjects that can be easily debated .

    I'm not quite sure what you mean ,,,. What portion of what is written in that site would you like to debate?
    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 11-29-2013 at 06:31 AM.
    The eye can not see what the mind does not know

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    John
    I think they are wonderful people.
    I disagree slightly with their definition of prey drive,,, and their pack drive definition is incomplete. Some things are just way to general but I think in many ways they have to be. Just like discussions here should be "in general" unlike a discussion in public with a specific audience. But over all the site is very informative and well done.
    The thing about drive's John is it is like operant conditioning,, it is not necessary to identify them to train a dog. Its just fun to talk about.
    But there are web sites every where that have some sort of misinformation of some kind,,for what ever reason. Or subjects that can be easily debated .

    I'm not quite sure what you mean ,,,. What portion of what is written in that site would you like to debate?Pete

    I'm heading out to train now, but when I return, the emboldened portion of your post might be a good place to start the discussion...


    john
    Last edited by john fallon; 11-29-2013 at 07:41 AM.
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

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    Quote Originally Posted by john fallon View Post
    Well Pete, what did you think of the hypotheses proffered in Jack and Wendy's article?

    Perhaps you, Darrin G, Dennis V, or anyone else for that matter, would be willing to offer some input on the integration of this information into the various training programs often being discussed here on the forum ?

    john
    John

    One could nit-pick about the definitions and the examples but overall the ideas are valuable. The scores are a subjective thing and answers would vary among different people for the same dog. However, if you score 2-4 of your dogs, the relative scores for each drive would be good for comparing your dogs.

    The most valuable thing about the exercise is that it will show you that each dog needs some custom training. For some dogs your emphasis and technique will be quite different than for others. And this is all in the context of following the same "program!"

    The use of defense drive to move a dog from prey drive to pack drive is arguable. For example, Hillmann has put much emphasis on switching from prey to pack and vice-versa and he avoids defense drive intervention quite a bit. He believes strongly in the balance between the prey and pack. He likes to have the dog in prey drive when asked to do obedience. Other trainers use defense drive a great deal and like to have the dog under their thumb all the time.

    If nothing else the exercise may confirm to you what you thought about your dog-- for example, high prey drive, and low pack drive. However, perhaps you didn't factor in the fight and flight components before and that will help you train that particular dog..

    Conclusion? The exercise will get you thinking about each of your dogs and how best to train each. That's always a good thing!
    Last edited by RetrieversONLINE; 11-29-2013 at 11:54 AM.
    Dennis Voigt
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    John, Thanks for including me in such great company with your invitation to comment here.

    I haven't got much to add to what's already been said.

    I think Volhard provides a framework for thinking (thank you Dennis) but that you don't necessarily need to understand it to condition a retriever to the desired behaviors (thank you Pete).

    I think "programs" provide a proven set of teaching steps in a progression that's usually successful. A program provides the science, if you will, of training a retriever. I think Volhard supports the art portion much more so than the science.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 11-29-2013 at 11:33 AM.
    Darrin Greene

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    Thank you all for the informative responses , most of which I am very much in aggrement.

    One point made by Dennis which I think cannot be overemphasised is this one...
    The most valuable thing about the exercise is that it will show you that each dog needs some custom training. For some dogs your emphasis and technique will be quite different than for others. And this is all in the context of following the same "program!.

    john
    "i guess the old saying 'those of us that think we know everything annoy those of you that does' " --bobbyb 9/13/06

    "A Good Dog is a Good Dog"

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    Senior Member truthseeker's Avatar
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    I also think the article is a good bases for discussion on the intricate portions on a dog personality and can be food for thought.

    When I read this type of information, I always am left with a feeling that something is missed. I think that when we try to put things neatly in a package, when working with live animals, there is to many gray areas. 1+2 dose not always = 3. Also when the pup is developing and maturing.Something I see one day could be total different the next.

    Example;
    I take a young dog out ( 16 to 20 weeks ) I throw them a retrieve, they go half way and run off to do something else. I first thing I think OH, low pray drive, but It also could mean high pack drive. ( I am the leader and I want something else ) There's more where I can see, that one drive can also be another depending on other aspects of the dog personality.

    As a trainer getting to specific can be misleading and for a first time trainer to intermediate trainer, I can see it to be destructive. That's why when I am asked, I advise to look at there overall attitude when training.

    Keith

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    I think that retrievers shouldn't be trained in defense. Although sometimes in some dogs harsh corrections make some dogs defensive. Police dogs are trained from prey to defence and then eventual fight . I am not quite sure what they are talking about when they say a correction puts dogs in defense. If he means avoidance behaviors or opposition reflex behaviors or flight type reactions falling in the defense category then may be. I would think they fit under sensitivities to the environment category.

    Most labs are low defense,,that why you can pinch their ear and not get eaten.

    I have a different understanding of that drive,, so I am not sure on his angle

    I am also in agreement with Darrin ,Dennis and TRueth

    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 11-29-2013 at 07:29 PM.
    The eye can not see what the mind does not know

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