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Thread: The other view of EX-IM Bank

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    Sorry IowaBayDog, you spout the same old socialist propaganda. A country lowers its own standard of living with subsidies, guaranteed loans and tariffs. A country that excersizes free trade will raise their standard of living. I had this discussion with Sw who chose to call the Law of Comparative Advantage, a theory(not). One only need understand it, to know that what you say is pure propaganda,


    Again for the last time ALL TARIFFS, LOAN GUARANTEES, SUBSIDIES OF ANY KIND ONLY LOWER THE STANDARD OF LIVING OF ALL.
    Comp Adv.jpg

    If Governments restrict trade (subsidize or tariff) Comparative advantage falls apart. Everyone has to play by the same rules. If we force US companies to play be "free" trade rules we must force our trade partners to do the same.

    Even then we would put our companies at a disadvantage if a third party is making a decision to buy US or EU products if that third party doesn't insist both parties play by the same rules.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by IowaBayDog View Post
    Comp Adv.jpg

    If Governments restrict trade (subsidize or tariff) Comparative advantage falls apart. Everyone has to play by the same rules. If we force US companies to play be "free" trade rules we must force our trade partners to do the same.

    Even then we would put our companies at a disadvantage if a third party is making a decision to buy US or EU products if that third party doesn't insist both parties play by the same rules.
    Again you spout the socialist propaganda. It matters not what or how much another country subsidizes a particular sector. It MAY affect what sectors of the economy that we have a comparative advantage but we are STILL better of as to GDP and a standard of living, if we adhere to free trade, regardless of the actions of other countries.

    I explained this before but will do again using Boeing as an example. Suppose the EU decided to sell us the Airbus for FREE! That's right FOR FREE!! To be sure Boeing would be out of business and those 250,000 employees would be looking for other jobs. But we would still have the air liners we need and also the goods and services produced by those 250,000 workers. But it is even better than that. We also have the capital and infrastructure that once was used to produce the airliners that can be used to produce other goods and services.

    When countries such as the EU subsidize an industry such as the airline industry, it is allocating both labor and capital resources away from industries that DO have a comparative advantage and as a result lowers relatively their standard of living. If we choose to do the same thing, then we also will lower our GDP and standard of living.

    We are ALWAYS better off we allow comparative advantage to allocate our labor and capital and not the lobbyists who spout such propaganda.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    Again you spout the socialist propaganda. It matters not what or how much another country subsidizes a particular sector. It MAY affect what sectors of the economy that we have a comparative advantage but we are STILL better of as to GDP and a standard of living, if we adhere to free trade, regardless of the actions of other countries.

    I explained this before but will do again using Boeing as an example. Suppose the EU decided to sell us the Airbus for FREE! That's right FOR FREE!! To be sure Boeing would be out of business and those 250,000 employees would be looking for other jobs. But we would still have the air liners we need and also the goods and services produced by those 250,000 workers. But it is even better than that. We also have the capital and infrastructure that once was used to produce the airliners that can be used to produce other goods and services.

    When countries such as the EU subsidize an industry such as the airline industry, it is allocating both labor and capital resources away from industries that DO have a comparative advantage and as a result lowers relatively their standard of living. If we choose to do the same thing, then we also will lower our GDP and standard of living.

    We are ALWAYS better off we allow comparative advantage to allocate our labor and capital and not the lobbyists who spout such propaganda.
    You miss the point again, If Airbus and Boeing are in a competition to sell to China Eastern. Airbus offers the 320 at a 40% discount over a 737. Boeing is screwed, those jobs are gone, the US gets nothing. Your view of trade is simplistic, its way more involved and complicated that what you portray. On a global scale, every industry we could possibly compete in has foreign competition that is subsidized. You keep saying comparative advantage, look it up in a textbook, it does not hold when the rules are not the same for all trade partners. Free Trade doesn't exist unless ALL trade partners are playing by the same rules.

    What you are proposing would be like a football team saying "Yes we know you get a first down every ten yards, but really we think that is special treatment so just give us 4 downs to get a touchdown instead" then wondering why you never win a game. For International trade you have to play be the rules of the game, not our rules, unless we impose those rules on the rest of the "teams".

    The facts of the world is that we are indeed competing against socialist entities and have to either throw in the towel or level the playing field when doing trade in those sectors. You are using Comparative Advantage for a case were every textbook out there says it does not apply or falls apart.

    Please specify what you believe is "Socialist Propaganda" that I am spouting?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IowaBayDog View Post
    You miss the point again, If Airbus and Boeing are in a competition to sell to China Eastern. Airbus offers the 320 at a 40% discount over a 737. Boeing is screwed, those jobs are gone, the US gets nothing. Your view of trade is simplistic, its way more involved and complicated that what you portray. On a global scale, every industry we could possibly compete in has foreign competition that is subsidized. You keep saying comparative advantage, look it up in a textbook, it does not hold when the rules are not the same for all trade partners. Free Trade doesn't exist unless ALL trade partners are playing by the same rules.

    What you are proposing would be like a football team saying "Yes we know you get a first down every ten yards, but really we think that is special treatment so just give us 4 downs to get a touchdown instead" then wondering why you never win a game. For International trade you have to play be the rules of the game, not our rules, unless we impose those rules on the rest of the "teams".

    The facts of the world is that we are indeed competing against socialist entities and have to either throw in the towel or level the playing field when doing trade in those sectors. You are using Comparative Advantage for a case were every textbook out there says it does not apply or falls apart.

    Please specify what you believe is "Socialist Propaganda" that I am spouting?
    Yet, you are against the Net Neutrality ruling that is designed to help level the playing field!

    You wanted the ISPs to own and control the internet as they have become so large they are able to kill competition. Now, you want to favor huge businesses via more crony capitalism with the EX-IM Bank.

    I suggest that those very few huge corporations that benefit by roughly 90% of the loans, write and finance their own damn paper and not burden the tax payer!
    “The President, Vice President and all Civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.” U S Constitution
    This entire impeachment process is just going to be all about knocking down the most offensively stupid arguments from Trump supporters.









  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by IowaBayDog View Post
    You miss the point again, If Airbus and Boeing are in a competition to sell to China Eastern. Airbus offers the 320 at a 40% discount over a 737. Boeing is screwed, those jobs are gone, the US gets nothing. Your view of trade is simplistic, its way more involved and complicated that what you portray. On a global scale, every industry we could possibly compete in has foreign competition that is subsidized. You keep saying comparative advantage, look it up in a textbook, it does not hold when the rules are not the same for all trade partners. Free Trade doesn't exist unless ALL trade partners are playing by the same rules.

    What you are proposing would be like a football team saying "Yes we know you get a first down every ten yards, but really we think that is special treatment so just give us 4 downs to get a touchdown instead" then wondering why you never win a game. For International trade you have to play be the rules of the game, not our rules, unless we impose those rules on the rest of the "teams".

    The facts of the world is that we are indeed competing against socialist entities and have to either throw in the towel or level the playing field when doing trade in those sectors. You are using Comparative Advantage for a case were every textbook out there says it does not apply or falls apart.

    Please specify what you believe is "Socialist Propaganda" that I am spouting?
    Try this very post of yours. SIMPLE QUESTION If the EU sold us their Airbus for free, would not our standard of living and GDP increase? The answer of course is YES. You can't deny it.

    As for the Law of Comparative Advantage, it says NOTHING about the existence of subsidies or not. It SAYS NOTHING about why one sector or the economy has a comparative advantage and another sector does not, nor does it matter if another government chooses to subsidise a sector.. It only says to put your resources in the sectors where the country has a comparative advantage and you will maximise your GDP and standard of living.

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    According to the Congressional Budget Office, they don't know if the EX-IM loans make money or lose tax payer money! The have two formulas for evaluating it, one shows a profit and the other a loss. That's what happens when you have a government so large and out of control, they don't know what's happening.
    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/45468
    If this program was making money don't you think it would have been topic of discussion during the debate process? It is likely right up there with United States Post Office an Amtrak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Down East Labs 217 View Post
    It is time for big government to go away and realize their only purpose at the federal level is to ensure the safety of the American Citizen and the protection of our great nation. The State Governors are responsible for the daily lives of his/her citizens that elected them. Feds need to get out of our lives and back to their jobs. Stop with the loans, stop with the subsidies, stop with the control of the schools, highways and everything else they have their hands in. Stop artificially inflating the stock market and stop trying to control peoples property with the EPA. Done with my rant for the day. In case you haven't noticed I hate big government putting their nose into our lives.
    Keep ranting. YOU ARE RIGHT!! Those that talk of getting of lobbyists should be for all you propose.

  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by caryalsobrook View Post
    Try this very post of yours. SIMPLE QUESTION If the EU sold us their Airbus for free, would not our standard of living and GDP increase? The answer of course is YES. You can't deny it.

    As for the Law of Comparative Advantage, it says NOTHING about the existence of subsidies or not. It SAYS NOTHING about why one sector or the economy has a comparative advantage and another sector does not, nor does it matter if another government chooses to subsidise a sector.. It only says to put your resources in the sectors where the country has a comparative advantage and you will maximise your GDP and standard of living.
    Ok so disregarding the fact that your argument is a complete strawman. Where do you think the U.S. would have a Comparative Advantage if all subsidies and tariffs were removed from every industry?

    Flat out, you don't understand Comparative Advantage past the 2 sentence explanation of it. I've shown you where it states it falls apart in the presence of gov't intervention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Franco View Post
    Yet, you are against the Net Neutrality ruling that is designed to help level the playing field!

    You wanted the ISPs to own and control the internet as they have become so large they are able to kill competition. Now, you want to favor huge businesses via more crony capitalism with the EX-IM Bank.

    I suggest that those very few huge corporations that benefit by roughly 90% of the loans, write and finance their own damn paper and not burden the tax payer!
    Net Neutrality does nothing to level any playing field, now your pushing the Socialist agenda. Net Neutrality gives the Gov't control over an industry within the U.S. that should be played in the free market. If a free enterprise is large so what? There are more than one, killing your competition is part of business. The Gov't picks the winners and losers with Net Neutrality.

    EX-IM is leveling the playing field for US companies that compete against foreign entities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IowaBayDog View Post
    Net Neutrality does nothing to level any playing field, now your pushing the Socialist agenda. Net Neutrality gives the Gov't control over an industry within the U.S. that should be played in the free market. If a free enterprise is large so what? There are more than one, killing your competition is part of business. The Gov't picks the winners and losers with Net Neutrality.

    EX-IM is leveling the playing field for US companies that compete against foreign entities.
    Wrong! Net Neutrality prevents the ISPs from becoming new-age robber barons.

    Just follow who was against it and where the ISPs campaign money went to.

    “The President, Vice President and all Civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.” U S Constitution
    This entire impeachment process is just going to be all about knocking down the most offensively stupid arguments from Trump supporters.









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