Senior hunt test question -settle debate
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Thread: Senior hunt test question -settle debate

  1. #1
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    Default Senior hunt test question -settle debate

    Our club has a debate. Where in the rules does it state that SHT dogs get only ONE controlled break. The rules actually states is:

    (2) Dogs shall be steady on the line, but a controlled break or creeping shall result in a relatively lower score in Trainability, than a controlled break or creeping would in a Junior Hunting Test.

    This seems to indicate that controlled Breaks are allowed but does not say JUST one. It does also not distinguish between marks and blinds.

    Can a dog control BREAK (not confusion)on a blind (not mark)? Where does it state this in the rules (Most people are stating: only one break at SHT level but not on blind but where is this in the rules)?

    Thanks in advance!!

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    Senior Member captainjack's Avatar
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    Moderate Dog Faults. Infractions in this category may actually be so slight as to warrant their consideration as only a “minor” fault, or they may be so severe as to warrant their consideration as a “serious” fault; also, repetitions of a “moderate” fault or a combination of several of these faults may readily convert the total infraction into a “serious” fault.

    Serious Dog Faults: Serious faults listed cover all those instances where the Standard describes conduct of the dog which in and of itself justifies elimination from the stake.

    Edit: if you have a senior dog with two controlled breaks and let him go get the bird, well let's just say you'll not have to worry much about ending up with a well trained retriever.
    Last edited by captainjack; 09-14-2016 at 07:50 PM.
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    Senior Member Brokengunz's Avatar
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    On a blind you can not resend the dog. If he or she leaves the line then you handle if needed. A recall or reheel is reason not to qualify.

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    Senior Member GaryJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by david hale View Post
    Our club has a debate. Where in the rules does it state that SHT dogs get only ONE controlled break. The rules actually states is:

    (2) Dogs shall be steady on the line, but a controlled break or creeping shall result in a relatively lower score in Trainability, than a controlled break or creeping would in a Junior Hunting Test.

    This seems to indicate that controlled Breaks are allowed but does not say JUST one. It does also not distinguish between marks and blinds.

    Can a dog control BREAK (not confusion)on a blind (not mark)? Where does it state this in the rules (Most people are stating: only one break at SHT level but not on blind but where is this in the rules)?

    Thanks in advance!!
    A few thoughts.

    It states "a" controlled break not 1 or more. So I am guessing you are thinking a dog could have a controlled break in the land series and again in the water series. Well the dog that breaks in each series would likely be marked low enough in trainability so the dog would not qualify. However with 1 controlled break in 1 series and being steady in the other series it could qualify by having a high enough score in trainability. Trainability includes Control.

    Chapter 2 pg 18
    In order to receive a Qualifying score in Junior Retriever Hunting Tests, a dog must acquire a minimum average of not less than five (5) in each of the abilities listed on the Evaluation Form, with an overall average score for the entire test of not less than seven (7). In order to receive a Qualifying score in Senior and Master Retriever Hunting Tests, not only must a dog receive an overall average of not less than seven (7.0) for the entire test, but it must also receive separate, independent average scores of not less than five (5.0) in each ability category related to Marking, as well as separate, independent average scores of not less than five (5.0) in each ability category related to Blinds





    I am not sure how there could be a controlled break on a blind. The judges don't release the dog to handler to send like they do on a mark. I believe the controlled break occurs when the dog breaks before the judges release the dog to the handler.

    Some additional information on Control.
    This is from page 48
    (2) Control is closely allied to the dog’s response to direction, but it also includes obedience and line manners. Control in the Senior and Master Tests also includes walking tractably at heel, off lead, assuming and staying in any designated position on-line, as well as remaining quietly on-line beside the handler after delivery of the bird. When called, a dog shall return promptly to its handler. Failure to do so is sufficient cause to justify a grade of “zero” in Trainability/Control


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    Senior Member djansma's Avatar
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    I think the key word is A in the sentence
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    Another example of a variable standard.

    page 50 Part V: "Prior to the test, the judges must agree on what constitutes creeping, control breaks, refusals, recast and popping and how these actions will be scored....it is important to retain the perspective of "suitability as a hunting companion". A certain tolerance must be afforded to a dog that still proves effective and accomplishes its purpose in the field."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brokengunz View Post
    On a blind you can not resend the dog. If he or she leaves the line then you handle if needed. A recall or reheel is reason not to qualify.
    I understand elimination for a no-go and I assume that is your point of not resending the dog .. If you send the dog , I understand you can't recall and resend ..but ...if in trying to line the dog up to go and it takes off on its own what is your opinion on a recall ...? Some would call it a controlled break ... Steve S
    "Your dog learns as much by doing his work right,by your praise and encouragement, as he does by your displeasure and correction." DLWalters

  10. #8
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    Judges discretion regarding one or two CBs in Senior. It DOESN'T say you only get one. It also doesn't say you can have two. Personally, I could easily pass a dog with two CBs IF they were very good in all other areas.

    Regarding a CB on a blind, how can you call it a re-send if you never sent the dog the first time? A controlled break is when a dog is unsteady and begins to go after a MARKED retrieve before being released/sent.

    John

  11. #9
    Senior Member captainjack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djansma View Post
    I think the key word is A in the sentence
    However in describing moderate faults it says repetitions of a “moderate” fault or a combination of several of these faults may readily convert the total infraction into a “serious” fault.

    The key word here being may.
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  12. #10
    Senior Member Good Dogs's Avatar
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    CJ is right in regard to the regulations and as important the description of faults. Nowhere in the regs is there a blanket free pass for a controlled break in senior. Folks seem to miss the difference between what is allowed and what is penalized, even to the extent of failure. A dog that steps out but is quickly and calmly brought back into control is a controlled break. A dog that blasts off for the bird and only after repeated whistle blasts and hollerin' returns to the line may also be a "controlled break." They are not equal. Judging is just that. There are very few absolutes in the regulations and a wide range of variables. Bottom line, you don't "get a controlled break." It's a fault but not an automatic drop. The dog could and should be dropped depending on the severity and repetition of the fault.
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