Are well bred chocolates in higher demand?
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Thread: Are well bred chocolates in higher demand?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Bryan Parks's Avatar
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    Default Are well bred chocolates in higher demand?

    I noticed a GRHRCH x GRHRCH choc litter priced at $2000 and I've also noticed HT choc stud fees up in the $1500-$2000 range with black studs with the same titles for less than $1000.

    Is there a higher demand for chocolate studs and good chocolate litters?

    Are chocolate pups easier to sell?

    If you had good chocolate female and had the choice between a black and chocolate stud who in your mind were equal with the same titles which would you pick?

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    if given the choice i would chose a black male chocolate factored, I don't think there is a higher demand for chocolate studs or good litters ,but there is not that many to chose from thus the highter prices

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    Senior Member swliszka's Avatar
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    Having FT lineage chocolates out of blacks(NO yellow) with chocolate recessive genes who throw only mixed black/chocolate litters. They are the best.Blacks give genetic stability and greatest diversity. Breed to straight blacks to (cross) and create a new B X C line maybe requiring another selected breeding to obtain Chocolates. Equally these Chocolates must have proven FT performance records (1977 and counting) Few before 1977 but had Canadian connections. Since 1984 a few southern breeders w/chololates and southern HTers/hunters. Now we have those bloody "silvers."Even high quality FT blacks deserving FT homes are sold to HT/non-competitive people if available homes are few - price drop. Capitalism/marketing @ work. Look at the lines. Why breed if only for color? The trick is to breed better chocolates for gene passing. We have had this discussion on RTF before. Use search.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swliszka View Post
    Having FT lineage chocolates out of blacks(NO yellow) with chocolate recessive genes who throw only mixed black/chocolate litters. They are the best.Blacks give genetic stability and greatest diversity. Breed to straight blacks to (cross) and create a new B X C line maybe requiring another selected breeding to obtain Chocolates. Equally these Chocolates must have proven FT performance records (1977 and counting) Few before 1977 but had Canadian connections. Since 1984 a few southern breeders w/chololates and southern HTers/hunters. Now we have those bloody "silvers."Even high quality FT blacks deserving FT homes are sold to HT/non-competitive people if available homes are few - price drop. Capitalism/marketing @ work. Look at the lines. Why breed if only for color? The trick is to breed better chocolates for gene passing. We have had this discussion on RTF before. Use search.
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  7. #5
    Senior Member Bryan Parks's Avatar
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    So let's say my choc female ends up showing that she has the traits needed and are worth passing on...and proves it.

    If I was to breed her to a really good AFC/FC black stud (EEBBxEEbb) I would get all black pups who carry chocolate which is what y'all are saying is the best? This brings stability and brings black dogs who carry chocolate into the gene pool.

    The only thing is you still have to breed two blacks that each carry chocolate or a chocolate to a black that carries chocolate to get any chocolate pups. I'm not saying you should breed for color but if your goal is to improve the chocolate lines and battle the breeders who bred ONLY for color...that is how you would go about it.
    Last edited by Bryan Parks; 02-06-2017 at 12:04 PM.

  8. #6
    Senior Member swliszka's Avatar
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    Assuming your chocolate has the right stuff credentials and meets the black FT titled dog breeding requirements do it. You breed and have hopefully about three (3) chocolate factored dogs out of a litter of 8-9 who meet all health issues. Breed to a similar pair of Chocolate factored black dogs. Enrich the gene pool with an alternate line.. The top 2012 Derby dog (black female w.choc recessive--now AFC was in the 2016 NAFC went out in the 6th series.) I chose to enlighten her astute breeders that in breeding that potential pair(stud b w/recessive c)to that female one of her ggparents carried the Chocolate recessive gene . No color evidence showing on their female. Gooddoginfo.com is the best not the freebie usurpers. They bred this combo 4 X and got mixed color litters (B & C). Breeding long term requires more money , effort planing and difficulties, Spent $12,000 on a black female to breed to my high quality male. She passed all my requirements but turned out to have ovarian cysts. Not able to produce. All potential pups were sold already with NO advertising due to buyers common standards and our common interests. Are you willing to lead or do the same old, same old? I also failed a second time with another black female. Bad eyes unsuitable for surgery and due to her poor genetic eye genes, Gave up on females , I salute high quality female owners/breeders. I gave up because of cost, disappointment and age. Start no later than 50 to get a 3 generation turn around of health/performance and breeding quality pups.

    Remember if you do not know genetics and performance you need to learn. Note we started with a closed pedigree before quality genetic/health/chipped breeding. Now the noose has tightened but "silvers" ugghh have polluted the Registry. Contact Erins Edge on RTF for thoughts.

  9. #7
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    This seem to go in cycles, for a few years, everyone wants chocolate (thus the price increases), then everyone wants yellow (price goes up), then the market gets flooded with dogs of different colors and now everyone wants black (but you can't find it so price goes up on black). A well bred chocolate highly titled male, is somewhat hard to find; there's only some many of them, and realistically people interested in producing the color, will pay more for a titled stud that is the color, where-as black studs are more plentiful. To me there are not enough lines that carry chocolate, if I remember there's only ~ 4-5 lines that have chocolate FC-AFC, only one that has a chocolate NFC (Gator points, Elwood, Cuda, Riptide, Devil, Tab, High tech). Most chocolate dogs seem to be chocolate to chocolate crossing and recrossing those lines, however most of those brown FC-AFC etc. are out of a black parent/parents. Thus I prefer a chocolate out of blacks, that's not to say it's has to be black to black. There are nice black studs that carry chocolate; but still you get into the same 4-5 lines. If someone really wanted to develop the chocolate trait, they could breed to dogs-lines that don't carry the color and spread the gene out, come back for it later. They have done this much better with the yellow color. Seems like they should be more focused on just breeding good dogs out of good dogs, if some of them happen to come out a particular color, so be it. I favor breedings such as (Blue-Ryder X Way-Da-Go Answered Prayer (blk) or (FC Devil (blk) X black female) where color wasn't the overall goal, but a bunch of good dogs came out of it, including FCs that were a strange color
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 02-06-2017 at 03:49 PM.
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    Senior Member Peter Balzer's Avatar
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    I'll take a swing at this. . . .

    Let's go by the numbers and maybe this will shed some light on it. Based on the HRC website it appears there's roughly 800 GRHRCH titled dogs since 1988 (call it 30 years). On average that's 27 dogs a year that earn the GRHRCH title (seems similar to the amout of FC or AFC titled dogs). Let's assume for round numbers that 90% of all GRHRCH dogs are labs and let's also assume that 15% of all titled GRHRCH labs are chocolate. (800 x .9) = 720 x .15 = 108 chocolate labs. Since this has been going on for 30 years let's assume 33% of these GRHRCH titled chocolate labs are actually still alive, breedable, or have semen available gives you roughly approximately 35 dogs. Then let's skinny this down further and assume that only 25% of titled GRHRCH chocolate labs are female so now you have 9 chocolate female GRHRCH chocolate labs. Here is what is driving the price.

    Add to the rarity of a GRHRCH chocolate female being bred, its being bred to a GRHRCH chocolate male and HRC people eat these breedings up. Charge what the market will bear.
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    Today on the internet:

    A green puppy was born in a chocolate litter to chocolate parents.
    Fully healthy & the color doesn't rub off. Biliverden
    Last edited by Marvin S; 02-06-2017 at 07:47 PM.
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  12. #10
    Senior Member Bryan Parks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin S View Post
    Today on the internet:

    A green puppy was born in a chocolate litter to chocolate parents.
    Fully healthy & the color doesn't rub off. Biliverden
    Interesting..

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ins...?client=safari

    "According to SWNS, the green tint to her fur is due to an overexposure of biliverdin, a substance found in the planceta."

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