Hillmann ecollar question
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Thread: Hillmann ecollar question

  1. #1
    Member Gray_Chin's Avatar
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    Default Hillmann ecollar question

    Long time reader, first time poster regarding my current 8 month old BLF. She is a great dog and we are having a lot of fun. We will hunt and plan on HT. We started with the Hillmann puppy dvd’s and are currently working through the fetch dvd. I really like the Hillmann style of training and really want to continue on into the fundamentals dvd. My issue is the ecollar and I hope some of you experienced Hillmann users can help me out.

    With my last dog I used the smartworks program and with that was able to correct my dog with the ecollar. For example, if he refused to come = here/nick. With Hillmann I can only use the collar to reinforce a command the dog is already doing = dog is coming here/nick. But what do I have in my tool box for a refusal of a known and CC’d command?

    My biggest concern is that we live in a suburban area, and most of our off leash walk time is spent in areas where she could be a nuisance to other people or pets or put herself in danger if she refuses a recall. My options seem to be…

    1. Continue with Hillmann, avoid or leash her in questionable areas, and trust in the finished product.
    2. Do a traditional CC, and stay with Hillmann (this does not seem like it could work)
    3. Do a traditional CC, and switch programs.


    Thoughts or suggestions? Something I’m missing?

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    I think you have misunderstood Hillman. You use the collar only to reinforce commands the dog KNOWS, not that the dog is DOING it at the time of correction. The dog understands the command, refuses or hesitates, HERE nick HERE.

    Meredith

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    Member Gray_Chin's Avatar
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    Thank you for the reply. Sorry if I was not clear, I do understand reinforcing only what the dog knows. She knows sit, and I reinforce sit with the collar while she is sitting. So regarding your reply, if she knows and has been CC to here, what your saying, even if she is running in the opposite direction refusing a verbal here, I then here nick here? Or if she refuses to sit, sit nick sit?

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    YES YES!! That is the point of reinforcing the commands in different situations/scenarios. If she knows "here" and chooses to blow you off, HERE nick HERE is the solution. You do not keep calling the dog's name or yelling the command if there is no response--you REINFORCE what the dog already KNOWS.

    Meredith

  7. #5
    Member Gray_Chin's Avatar
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    Thank you for clearing that up! I really appreciate it!

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    Senior Member KwickLabs's Avatar
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    Gra Chin, You should be cautious about taking e-collar advice from someone that is not using the Hillmann program. The idea of using "corrections" as a
    a short-cut to producing conditioned responses is somewhat of a trap. Hillmann's e-collar is used to re-enforce the correct action as it is happening....not
    make it happen. It takes time to establish a conditioned response and it takes longer if the process does not depend on "because I said so".

    For example, when your pup is coming toward you re-enforce that action. If you need to use the collar to make the pup stop and come to you this
    means the pup needs more work on "here" re-enforcement plus corrections are not part of the basic Hillmann puppy program. There seems to be somewhat
    of a misconception that "here" can be a solid expectation in a matter of a few weeks......and if not, a few solid "nick here nicks" will put you back in charge
    (no pun intended).

    It takes hundreds and hundreds of correct "reps" in a wide variety of situations for quite awhile before one may begin to feel that "here" is solid. In addition,
    "here" is not supposed to be taught until "sit" is solid. More than a few are in too much of a hurry.

    Keep in mind that Hillmann pup's (if done properly) have a very solid sit expectation. If you feel strongly about a need to "get them" quickly.......just say
    "sit".......and go get them. Don't ask me how I know this.
    Last edited by KwickLabs; 05-08-2017 at 02:39 AM.
    Jim Boyer KwickLabsii.com

  9. #7

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    Does Hillman use a nick for "here" in the same way that he does with "sit"? I don't recall seeing him do it in the video.

  10. #8
    Senior Member T-Pines's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KwickLabs View Post
    Gra Chin, You should be cautious about taking e-collar advice from someone that is not using the Hillmann program. The idea of using "corrections" as a
    a short-cut to producing conditioned responses is somewhat of a trap. Hillmann's e-collar is used to re-enforce the correct action as it is happening....not
    make it happen. It takes time to establish a conditioned response and it takes longer if the process does not depend on "because I said so".

    For example, when your pup is coming toward you re-enforce that action. If you need to use the collar to make the pup stop and come to you this
    means the pup needs more work on "here" re-enforcement plus corrections are not part of the basic Hillmann puppy program. There seems to be somewhat
    of a misconception that "here" can be a solid expectation in a matter of a few weeks......and if not, a few solid "nick here nicks" will put you back in charge
    (no pun intended).

    It takes hundreds and hundreds of correct "reps" in a wide variety of situations for quite awhile before one may begin to feel that "here" is solid. In addition,
    "here" is not supposed to be taught until "sit" is solid. More than a few are in too much of a hurry.

    Keep in mind that Hillmann pup's (if done properly) have a very solid sit expectation. If you feel strongly about a need to "get them" quickly.......just say
    "sit".......and go get them. Don't ask me how I know this.
    Hear, hear!!! Well said, Mr Boyer!

    Follow Jim Kwick's advice for a Hillmann trained dog. Bill teaches, practices, reinforces and conditions success. If you are thinking about tools for making corrections, you are on a path away from Hillmann.

    With dedication to his process, refusals are very rare, so corrections are very rare.

    Or is it the other way around ...

    Jim

  11. #9
    Senior Member mikehmike's Avatar
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    I'll just toss this out there but when I ordered Hillmans DvD...his wife called me literally an hour later and asked me about my pup/age/etc and suggested the how to train a retriever puppy NOT the one I ordered (the documentary style one, art and science I believe it's called). So maybe you could shoot them an email and get a response....not sure how out of the ordinary it is for them to contact people but I was amazed she called when it happened.
    Michael Whitby

    "You can tell a lab, ask a golden but you must negotiate with a Chessie."

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    Jim, I am new in the Hillman process and training my first lab. I have read a lot of differing opinions on it and also tons of articles, blogs, and forum posts with advice and tips on his program. This is by far the best worded advice I have read, others may have tried to get the same point across but you were very short, to the point, and clear. Thank you for putting this out there, I wish I would have found it put so clearly about 2 months ago!

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