Shot Flyers in Junior?
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Thread: Shot Flyers in Junior?

  1. #1
    Senior Member HuntinDawg's Avatar
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    Default Shot Flyers in Junior?

    I had not attended an AKC test in 9-10 years until recently when my daughter handled our dog in a Junior test. She had handled her twice in HRC Started and I was explaining the differences (very few by rule in Started/Junior) and I mentioned that there would be a shot flyer. I was interested to see that as our dog is generally pretty amped up without a shot flyer. I was surprised that there was no shot flyer in Junior, but there were at the Master flight that we watched.

    In the past the only AKC tests that I ever attended that didn't include shot flyers were in Tennessee where there were some legal issues (didn't apply for the necessary permit within the allotted timeframe), which was clearly not the case here since they were using them in Master.

    Are shot flyers becoming less common in Junior (or in general) in AKC HT? If so, that's a darn shame.
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  3. #2
    Senior Member Dave Farrar's Avatar
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    Every Junior test I ran always had a shot flyer. Some had 1 on the land series and 1 on the water series.
    DUCKDAWG'S MAC'S MAGICAL MR. OCTOBER SH -- Reggie

  4. #3
    Senior Member fishduck's Avatar
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    I prefer to shoot a flyer in Junior both as a judge and a club member. There are some logistical issues that must be considered. The first is the club members that are available as shooters. A clubs experienced members are normally running Master and Senior. Sometimes it can be very difficult to get someone to agree to shoot at a different stake. Often the least experienced shooters end up at Junior. Junior IMHO really needs the best shooters because the dogs are easily distracted by delays, fly aways and inconsistent fall areas. If an experienced club member is available, that club member is normally going to marshal. This is priority because you need someone willing to explain the process to new handlers that only see "pros" being bumped to the front of the running order.

    There are a lot of reasons that a club might decide the flyer isn't a good idea at Junior. If it is a concern, call and ask prior to entering the test. In my area most clubs do throw one flyer in Junior.
    Mark Land

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  6. #4
    Senior Member HuntinDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishduck View Post
    I prefer to shoot a flyer in Junior both as a judge and a club member. There are some logistical issues that must be considered. The first is the club members that are available as shooters. A clubs experienced members are normally running Master and Senior. Sometimes it can be very difficult to get someone to agree to shoot at a different stake. Often the least experienced shooters end up at Junior. Junior IMHO really needs the best shooters because the dogs are easily distracted by delays, fly aways and inconsistent fall areas. If an experienced club member is available, that club member is normally going to marshal. This is priority because you need someone willing to explain the process to new handlers that only see "pros" being bumped to the front of the running order.

    There are a lot of reasons that a club might decide the flyer isn't a good idea at Junior. If it is a concern, call and ask prior to entering the test. In my area most clubs do throw one flyer in Junior.
    Not upset, but disappointed. Not trying to make a big deal, just didn't know if something had changed. I actually thought it was a requirement.

    In the discussion of pros/cons for HRC/AKC HT one of the "pros" for AKC HT is you get shot flyers IMO.

    I've e-mailed the hunt secretary for the next test we are considering entering but have received no response yet (just inquired yesterday, so no biggie).

    The good news is that my daughter is really enjoying handling her dog.

    Thanks for your response.
    ---------------------------------------------
    HRCH UH "Boomer" MH (RIP)
    UH HR "Hunter" SH (RIP)

    "When you go to a test or a trial, your dog should be underwhelmed." ~ Evan Graham

    "It is unreasonable to expect a dog to be more precise than you are." ~ Rex Carr

    "You own what you condone." ~ Mike Lardy

  7. #5
    Senior Member fishduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HuntinDawg View Post
    Not upset, but disappointed. Not trying to make a big deal, just didn't know if something had changed. I actually thought it was a requirement.

    In the discussion of pros/cons for HRC/AKC HT one of the "pros" for AKC HT is you get shot flyers IMO.

    I've e-mailed the hunt secretary for the next test we are considering entering but have received no response yet (just inquired yesterday, so no biggie).

    The good news is that my daughter is really enjoying handling her dog.

    Thanks for your response.
    Enjoy the time you are spending with your daughter!!!! They grow up fast. Kudos for getting her involved!
    Mark Land

  8. #6
    Senior Member mikehmike's Avatar
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    I can tell you in a specific case when my dog was going for his last JH pass, he got a live flyer and the shooter winged it...bird proceeded to go into deep cover and my dog lost it...couldn't find it and failed. I'm not into reinventing the wheel but that day I was against live flyers in junior
    Michael Whitby

    "You can tell a lab, ask a golden but you must negotiate with a Chessie."

  9. #7
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Hmm interesting I sort've thought they were a requirement, heck it's standard to get 2; 1 on land and 1 on water around here. I believe there would be highly upset handlers if they only got 1 flyer, let alone none. They'd most likely be asking what their $70-$80 entry was actually paying for .
    "They's Just DAWGS"; "I train dogs, Not papers"
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  10. #8
    Senior Member Karen Klotthor's Avatar
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    As Mark stated , not all clubs have the help in the Junior level If the person shooting flyers keep missing that is worse than no flyers at all. Down South, you rarely if ever see 2 flyers for the same stake on one day.

  11. #9
    Senior Member Ron in Portland's Avatar
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    This is what it currently says in Chapter 3 of the rule book,

    "A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made
    available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all
    test levels. Only birds shot as flyers during the event
    or euthanized within 24 hours of the event start time as
    stated in the premium may be used at an event.

    At least one live flyer must be used in a Senior or
    Master level test unless the use of live ammunition
    is prohibited by law or policy of the land managing
    organization at the testing location."

    So, according to the rules, you aren't required to shoot a flyer in Junior (although you are required to make two available for the judges to use at their discretion). With that said, I've not seen a Junior test in the Pacific Northwest when they didn't shoot a flyer, although typically it's only in the first series.

    I had copies of older rule books on my computer. The wording was exactly the same as above in the 2010 rulebook; however, in the one I had from 2005, all it stated was:

    "A minimum of two live birds per entry must be made
    available for use at the discretion of the Judges in all
    test levels."

    I suppose, based on this language, there wasn't a requirement in any series to shoot live flyers.
    Ron Rhodes
    www.portlandlabrador.com
    A Lab has no appreciation for the artistic value of a bonsai tree, but does appreciate their potential as chew toys.

  12. #10
    Senior Member jacduck's Avatar
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    My argument against flyers in Junior is because of the # of times I have seen birds come down in multiple pieces. Understand that JR gets the beginner shooters and even though our club tells them to show up with open chokes, some don't know what an open choke is. The 2nd reason is many JR dogs have not seen a flyer (sometimes not even a bird) and a test is a poor place to get them started IMHO. For me JR is the place we get new people invited into the deep pit we dwell in.
    John Cottenham aka jacduck in many circles before the internet


    "Duck hunter's minds are like concrete. All mixed up and permanently set."

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