Are 60 dog Master limits resulting in Substandard Master tests. - Page 11
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View Poll Results: Are 60 dog limits resulting in substandard master tests?

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  • Yes

    25 23.36%
  • No

    82 76.64%
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Thread: Are 60 dog Master limits resulting in Substandard Master tests.

  1. #101
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul young View Post
    This poll has been up and running for nearly 5 days. There have been 76 respondents. Is it representative of the portion of the Hunt Test community which runs Master Hunt Tests? You decide.

    Few tests actually start 60 dogs due to scratches. All of the tests I have judged which started more than 50 dogs took all of the 2 days we had allotted to complete.

    In my opinion, A good Master hunt test consists of well placed marks that are spread out enough that it is obvious whether the dog has marked them or not. If a dog switches it's hunt that should be a black and white situation. The blinds should use terrain features, scent problems, courage, especially in the case of water blinds, and place(s) for the dog to get out of sight of the judges and handler if appreciatively off the line to the blind. There should be enough room, however, for a good handler to save the situation if the dog refuses A cast in one of these critical areas en-route.

    In the case of judging, SAFETY, TIME MANAGEMENT and FAIRNESS are paramount. The dogs deserve safe tests. Judges need to use their time wisely, and not make manpower demands that the club cannot support in a timely manner. Every participant should feel like they and their dog were judged fairly and impartially at the end of their run, win or lose. Some on this thread have expressed their displeasure with how many dogs are carried to the next series. The rulebook tells judges they should be GENEROUS in their callbacks when time allows. I am one who tries to do this whenever possible.

    Over the 20+ years I have been judging, my co-judge and I have had many participant's who failed approach us at the end of the day and thank us for a great test. In my mind, this is the greatest compliment judges can receive.

    It's not rocket science, but there are A LOT of moving parts. One does not just wake up one morning and know how to accomplish what I have outlined. Experience is built out of successes and mistakes over years and dozens of judging assignments. Newcomers should consider what is actually going on before condemning judges as being inept or casting aspersions as to their fairness and impartiality. Paul
    Maybe someday I'll get a chance to put a good dog in front of you Paul. I would in a heartbeat despite whatever disagreements we've had here.
    Darrin Greene

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    Not sure who you are or if you've ever been through a judging seminar, or if you hunt but...

    There is "handling" and then there is handling.

    A dog can do a great job marking and run into any number of factors that require some help from the handler, AFTER they've demonstrated their marking ability. The ability to expedite what could be a protracted hunt is a VERY valuable skill. If a situation arises where that has to happen more than once in 9-12 marks it's not the end of the world.

    Being able to do "a clean triple" is entirely too arbitrary a measurement.

    It's no different than judges who have the "two handles and you're out rule". It's a bit of a cop out to save having to justify a more subjective score.

    Human brains love simplicity and systems. Hard fast rules avoid conflict. We don't like conflict.

    Setting up and judging tests isn't that simple.
    Ditto on this.

    I haven't followed every comment on this thread so hope I'm not repeating someone else's remarks. We are testing hunting dogs! A dog that demonstrates a good mark, a persistent, tight hunt in the area and then a quick, clean handle and needs to do that on two marks on a weekend would get a ribbon from me more times than not.

    If you want to say I need a clean triple to pass a Master test I'm okay with that too but you better guarantee me a triple in all three series so I have a chance to do it. Nothing I dislike more than a last series double with no thought put into it thinking it will be easy and a time saver then having a rodeo break out.
    Mark Ottis

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas D View Post
    Just like school. Everyone isnít an A+ student like your dog was that weekend.
    C students pass too.
    Understood, i just think the C students should be in the senior.

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  6. #104
    Senior Member Dan Wegner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas D View Post
    Just like school. Everyone isn’t an A+ student like your dog was that weekend.
    C students pass too.
    Tom, you hit the nail on the head. Hunt Tests are pass/fail. The ribbon isn't colored any differently for an A+ job than it is for a C- job. If that rubs someone the wrong way, then perhaps Field Trials would be more attractive to them.

    I ran Hunt Tests for several years until I started seeing what I felt were sub-standard performances being called back and passing at some tests. I used to admire those dogs who had a MH title, but seeing judges pass multiple ugly handles and dogs that couldn't mark or take direction from their handlers, definitely watered down the accomplishment in my eyes. I'm not saying it happens at every test, but the fact that it happens at all is a shame and turned me off to the game. I also jusged hunt tests, but like others have said, unless you were very generous with callbacks and pass percentages, you don't get many invites. There are still quite a few talented dogs with MH titles, but I don't feel simply having the title is an indicator of true MH talent any more.

    I happily moved on to running and judging Field Trials and couldn't be happier. Substandard work doesn't fly in trials and when you do finish in the ribbons, it's an accomplishment to be proud of, for sure.

    If someone is happy running hunt tests and gets enjoyment out of them, great. Keep it up. However, if you feel your dog is better than the rest and you need a little something more, I know where you can find it.

  7. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by drunkenpoacher View Post
    Understood, i just think the C students should be in the senior.
    That’s where you misunderstand the judging standards of hunt tests. Have you read the rule book regarding scoring? Dogs that score 7 pass just like the ones who score 10.

    If this system really bothers you, this might not be the game for you. Why spend time and money on a venue which you think the title means nothing and isn’t judged properly? Maybe continue with FT. Plenty of room there for new blood.
    Tom Dorroh
    Boston, GA

  8. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Wegner View Post
    Tom, you hit the nail on the head. Hunt Tests are pass/fail. The ribbon isn't colored any differently for an A+ job than it is for a C- job. If that rubs someone the wrong way, then perhaps Field Trials would be more attractive to them.

    I ran Hunt Tests for several years until I started seeing what I felt were sub-standard performances being called back and passing at some tests. I used to admire those dogs who had a MH title, but seeing judges pass multiple ugly handles and dogs that couldn't mark or take direction from their handlers, definitely watered down the accomplishment in my eyes. I'm not saying it happens at every test, but the fact that it happens at all is a shame and turned me off to the game. I also jusged hunt tests, but like others have said, unless you were very generous with callbacks and pass percentages, you don't get many invites. There are still quite a few talented dogs with MH titles, but I don't feel simply having the title is an indicator of true MH talent any more.

    I happily moved on to running and judging Field Trials and couldn't be happier. Substandard work doesn't fly in trials and when you do finish in the ribbons, it's an accomplishment to be proud of, for sure.

    If someone is happy running hunt tests and gets enjoyment out of them, great. Keep it up. However, if you feel your dog is better than the rest and you need a little something more, I know where you can find it.
    I have heard the same thing from quite a few experienced trainers. I'll take the advice and devote my time to field trials.

  9. #107
    Senior Member suepuff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas D View Post
    Just like school. Everyone isnít an A+ student like your dog was that weekend.
    C students pass too.
    THIS^^^^ is an excellent point.

    This is a game. Not all of us can train 5-7 days a week. Not all of us have anything other thanround farm ponds to train in. I do the best I can with what I have. Things arenít perfect. Are some test ridiculous? Yes. Do dogs get freebies some days? Yes. Do you get screwed some days? Yes. Frustrating when series seem/are crappy? Yes. But then you have a kick ass awesome test the next weekend.

    Itís a GAME.

    I am also the hunt test secretary for our club. Time management is a challenge. Especially when you have minimal volunteers or those people you hired to help, walk off. Until youíve been down in the trenches dealing with all this, you have no right to bitch. We do what needs to be done to get the test run. No one wants to run into another day. It costs $ to rent the grounds, to keep the judges (if they can stay), competitors canít always stay. I know I canít.

    YOU can make the choice to not run under judges that consistently put on wimpy tests. Itís that easy. If you think the dog work isnít good enough for you? Go to Quals or field trials or whatever. Itís simple.

    Sue Puff
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  10. #108
    Senior Member wsumner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suepuff View Post
    THIS^^^^ is an excellent point.

    This is a game. Not all of us can train 5-7 days a week. Not all of us have anything other thanround farm ponds to train in. I do the best I can with what I have. Things aren’t perfect. Are some test ridiculous? Yes. Do dogs get freebies some days? Yes. Do you get screwed some days? Yes. Frustrating when series seem/are crappy? Yes. But then you have a kick ass awesome test the next weekend.

    It’s a GAME.

    I am also the hunt test secretary for our club. Time management is a challenge. Especially when you have minimal volunteers or those people you hired to help, walk off. Until you’ve been down in the trenches dealing with all this, you have no right to bitch. We do what needs to be done to get the test run. No one wants to run into another day. It costs $ to rent the grounds, to keep the judges (if they can stay), competitors can’t always stay. I know I can’t.

    YOU can make the choice to not run under judges that consistently put on wimpy tests. It’s that easy. If you think the dog work isn’t good enough for you? Go to Quals or field trials or whatever. It’s simple.

    Sue Puff
    Well said. As a person who has chaired numerous HTs, I agree completely. Some people are quick to complain but they are too busy to take on the job themselves. I do it because I love the sport and my dog. Not every test will be perfect but we try to make every one better than the last. I have NEVER selected judges based on their pass rate.

    Thank you for the work you put in as hunt secretary.

  11. #109
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    I find that the ones who complain about hunt tests being too easy and think there dog "won the test for that day" go along time without a ribbon in FT. Vic

  12. #110
    Senior Member ErinsEdge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZEKESMAN View Post
    I find that the ones who complain about hunt tests being too easy and think there dog "won the test for that day" go along time without a ribbon in FT. Vic
    That's exactly the point. Do they have the patience to go a year or more without a ribbon as in FT's where opens and amateurs are often more than 60 entries? When I was for the MH Excellent just about no one but the author was for it. They don't want it to be harder, but they want to show they are better, most of those complaining haven't even run Master that long.
    Nancy P



    "We give dogs time we can spare, space we can spare and love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made." M.Facklam

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