crossing the line
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Thread: crossing the line

  1. #1
    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    Default crossing the line

    I would like to hear from HRC judges on this... but am open to others' thoughts.

    I have heard this from some fairly exp HRC participants (I am not exp much with HRC, having run 4 finished tests, thus the question) this is especially true for the grand...... Seems to me a dog could be angling away from the line, be given a cast and not make enough change in direction, but run parallel to the line, then, given another cast to correct and still not be 'out of the corridor'. I get it if the dog is unable to negotiate hazards of the blind, is digging back, scalloping, etc, but if the dog is in some area which has no hazards and takes a cast, but not enough of one to cross the line... so what?

    I have read the rules and don't read anywhere in there about the dog 'crossing the line to the blind' being a requirement.

    I guess I would rather have my dog take 3 casts to the blind, than 6 - as long as we negotiated the hazards accordingly. And even so, a dog that ping pongs back and forth could still not negotiate the hazards of the blind as the judges would like.
    The way I look at it, every dog is an opportunity to be a better trainer, and every day is a new day to be a better trainer to the same dog we trained yesterday.

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    There is nothing in the HRC regulations for running or judging blind retrieves that supports the judges requiring the dog to "cross the line to the blind" in order to pass the test.

    In fact, the regulations state quite the opposite: Page 50, (IX.)- "Lining the blind shall not be required. The Finished Hunting Retriever should demonstrate the ability to take an initial line toward the blind and a willingness and ability to respond to commands from the handler. The Finished Hunting Retriever must stay under control and pick up the bird quickly and efficiently. The judges will NOT (emphasis mine) require the retriever to run a predetermined route or channel."

    There is nothing in the regulations concerning judging guidelines which modify the above. Further, there is nothing in the regulations for Grand Hunting Retriever tests which modify the above.

    A properly set up blind retrieve does not require nit-picking. Negotiating the hazards on the way to the bird should provide all the information required to judge the dog and handler team.

    Unfortunately, there are judges in ALL test and trial venues who make their own rules and guidelines for judging. -Paul
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

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    Senior Member fishduck's Avatar
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    I have heard that silliness spewed by judges wearing camo and black. The rule does not exist. If you want entertainment ask about the triangles.
    Mark Land

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    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishduck View Post
    I have heard that silliness spewed by judges wearing camo and black. The rule does not exist. If you want entertainment ask about the triangles.
    I have heard that too... hahaha
    The way I look at it, every dog is an opportunity to be a better trainer, and every day is a new day to be a better trainer to the same dog we trained yesterday.

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    Senior Member championretrievers's Avatar
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    If you want to pass the Grand and your dog does not line the blind, your dog had better cross the imaginary line to the blind, just sayin
    Tina Perron
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    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by championretrievers View Post
    If you want to pass the Grand and your dog does not line the blind, your dog had better cross the imaginary line to the blind, just sayin

    I have no desire to run the grand. I would rather spend my time training for the master national, based upon this 'criteria' alone. It is beyond ridiculous.
    The way I look at it, every dog is an opportunity to be a better trainer, and every day is a new day to be a better trainer to the same dog we trained yesterday.

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    Senior Member ErinsEdge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I have no desire to run the grand. I would rather spend my time training for the master national, based upon this 'criteria' alone. It is beyond ridiculous.
    I was taught to always to "challenge the blind" and I only ran AKC HT and FT. If you are running parallel to the ideal line, at least cross it towards the end or it may not fly.
    Nancy P



    "We give dogs time we can spare, space we can spare and love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made." M.Facklam

  10. #8
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Ok so the way I remember it taught and this is Old HRC judges seminar (full day). Is what is wanted when judging blinds is for the dog to make progress either toward the blind or towards the line of the blind, with each cast. There's actually a diagram, shows the corridor and both options; one is straighter casts to the blind, the other is back and forth angle casting across the line to the blind (both are cast in the corridor, not way out in No-mans land). I believe the whole point of that diagram was to allow handlers to give over casts to the line of the blind, and then a back to the blind; rather than having to do overly many angles; but you still need to stay in the corridor and you still need to be making progress to the blind. So theorectically you can cross back and forth over the line to the blind, but it's not required and not optimal. Then you got to consider what stake your judging and that stakes standards, corridor is bigger in seasoned, crossing widely back and forth, or skirting along the edge of the corridor, might not be that big of an issue. Finished tighter corridor, Grand (well depends on judges; but the corridor might only be the line; so either your on it or your crossing it)

    Still I believe This one seminar slide, which is still in the new 4hr seminar is most likely where all the confusion comes from (there was a bunch of "discussion" on this slide in the day long seminar every-time). Them cutting down the HRC seminar to 4hrs, most of which is nothing but HRC history and "KEEP in the HUNT"; Good video but you can watch it on the HRC website, at your leisure. Eats up a bunch of time and doesnt allow much instruction-discussion in how to actually judge things, and people tend to make up their own interpretations. Heck I had people thinking a seasoned dog could be resent on every mark-blind and still pass (no way to fail seasoned-you just resend ) after the taking the new seminar.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 03-01-2019 at 11:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by championretrievers View Post
    If you want to pass the Grand and your dog does not line the blind, your dog had better cross the imaginary line to the blind, just sayin
    Your dogs have passed the Grand many times, Tina. Congratulations!

    Where can I find this criteria?

    Just wondering, as I have been an AA Finished judge for 15 years and I am unaware of anything in the regulations to support this. -Paul
    Last edited by paul young; 03-01-2019 at 04:23 PM.
    there's no good reason to fatten up a retriever.

  12. #10
    Senior Member KNorman's Avatar
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    Generally, I agree with Paul that crossing the line is not a requirement per se.

    However, I do PREFER an HRC handler to at least make the attempt to cross the line and attempt to challenge the blind, but I don’t think I’ve ever outright dropped a HRC dog that stays tight to the line but doesn’t cross. To drop a HRC dog for not crossing the line would not be consistent with the rule book (as stated by Paul).

    I do think that Finished HRC handlers often run pretty loose blinds, but the rule book is the rule book, and I don’t think that imposing my personal standard is within the spirit of HRC. So, as long as the blind is completed within the corridor, that dog carries.

    Remember that blinds are a test of control. I would MUCH rather see a handler/dog team attempt to cross the line and stay within the parameters of the blind corridor using a few more handles than a team that gets loose and counts whistles.

    JMO.
    Last edited by KNorman; 03-02-2019 at 02:56 AM.

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