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Thread: Buggy on cold blinds

  1. #11

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    To answer ur question yes all of his issues are at my side. He was a very difficult dog to force double t etc. I should have slowed down during these basic steps instead I pushed through in hopes that getting him through it that these issues would clean up whatever issue. Again completely my fault I should have been more patient with the animal and done more teaching to paint a clear picture as to what I am asking him to do. Instead I would get frustrated and apply pressure. It’s embarrassing to admit since then I have matured as a trainer and really tried to limit the amount of corrections I give to all my dogs. When I do give corrections now it’s only when I’m positive that the dog is being disobedient or not giving effort. So that’s why I am where I am. I can’t change what I’ve already done so now I’ve gotta try and fix it.

    He understands back means back I am confident of this. However within the last 6 months he has been giving me 1 no go every 3 to 4 weeks on cold blinds. I was giving him a here Knick correction with a medium 4 burn which is pretty high for him. Once the correction is made he will give me really good effort leaving the line for prob a week. As time passes his momentum leaving the line will slowely deteriorate over the next few weeks and then I’ll get another no go.

    The correction seems to work but by the mistakes I’ve made in the past I would like to address the poor attitude, no goes, lack of momentum leaving the line and bugginess at the line before they start.

    My thought process behind this is to keep the blind running training sessions positive and fun for him. By running these confidence drills I mentioned in my initial post I’m hoping that he will gradually improve with all aspects of the issues I’m having by enjoying blind training instead of fearing making a mistake.

    To answer ur question about him handling really well. Once the dog leaves the line after the first whistle he can run any all age level blind water, land, factors he’s as good of handling dog as I could ask for. He’s really honest with handling I don’t get many scallops. I would say 95 percent of his cast are what he thinks I’m asking him to do. He sits on the whistle beautifully. he understands the difference between straight back, angle back over etc.

    He’s an extremely intelligent dog but he will over think things at times. To give u an example of his intelligence at times my training partner will setup marks over 700 yards long. Which in my opinion doesn’t accomplish much but I’ll run it. We throw a large white boat bumper so the dogs can clearly see the mark. We have a bird planted where the white bumper is thrown. Once the dog is sent the white bumper will be picked up and the thrower will retire. Once he finds the bird we planted he’ll pick the bird up and continue hunting. He knows that what he picked up is not what was thrown. The only time he does this is when we try to make the switch but 100 percent of the time if we make the switch he will continue his hunt until I call him in. I’m not trying to brag just trying to help you guys understand what type of animal I’m dealing with. A lot of times I wish the good lord would have givin me a dumber dog lol.

    In conclusion I am attempting to develop a more positive attitude at the line when running blinds.

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  3. #12

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    Rob

    I don’t get the same reactions in the yard or running pattern blinds. He’s as close to perfect in the yard and pattern blind field as a dog can be. He locks in on where he’s suppose to go and tears off the line. My problem is transferring what’s happening in the yard and pattern blind field to cold blinds. Strangely enough the dead bird q works perfectly in the yard. The second I say it he locks in. I can pull and push him in the yard. Snap my fingers and he’ll adjust his line but for whatever reason when he’s not confident as to where he is suppose to go all of the issues arise. I haven’t used any pressure at all to try and correct the bugginess.

    Thanks again guys for the help

    My apologies for my grammar I’ve really got to start reviewing these post before I press send. I sound illiterate lol

  4. #13
    Senior Member Charles C.'s Avatar
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    Walk around blinds are great for momentum and confidence. Stop running pattern blinds. They just make the trainer feel good.

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  6. #14
    Senior Member Rob DeHaven's Avatar
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    Well if you are only having problems running cold blinds then building confidence in new places is the goal. As Charles said no more pattern blinds. I read on rtf a long time ago that if you want a dog that gets good at running blinds the first thing you need to do is run 1000 blinds. Then after that you need to run 1000 more blinds. Without knowing exactly what you do I would say don’t make the blinds to long and when st the line be very enthusiastic with the dog getting him real excited by just messing around and when he is excited and playful with the same excitement in your voice get him to heel and as quickly as possible get him lined up and kick him off. When he gets back keep that same excitement. No collar at all. If he no goes sometime just step back give him some love and get him excited again and kick him off. Maybe throw some fun bumpers to get his attitude up. Another thing I read on rtf that I try to follow is that having a dog do things because the are excited and want to is much better than a dog that does it out of fear of pressure. Don’t get me wrong the collar and pressure has it’s place. I use them when needed but dogs that want to do something because they love it just perform more consistently. This is just suggestion and may not fix the issue but one thing is for sure I have not found you cause more problems when going with the fun excitement route. Worth trying before adding more pressure that has a tendency to cause problems to grow when done incorrectly.
    Three D Retrievers

  7. #15
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    I might get flamed for this one but here it is...

    Stop running blinds. Do your obedience over with a strong focus on rewarding good behavior rather than punishing bad behavior.

    I'd start giving all the rewards from my jacket pocket, then start letting him pick up some bumpers off the ground once he's really showing me a happy attitude working next to me.

    You need to rebuild the relationship he has to you when he's within the length of his leash (6').

    Then I'd go back to pattern blinds with the goal of little to no handling, on the line or in the field.

    I'd also institute an immediate reward any time I made a correction. Sit - nick - sit - bumper... here - nick - here - bumper from my pocket.... etc...

    It sounds like he needs to be more optimistic when he feels the stim come on. Right now it's driving a big negative. You can reprogram it if it always leads to a reward for some period of time, just like you can program a clicker.

    Here's a video that shows some of what the obedience might look like.

    I have one dog who gets easily out of balance with this, meaning he'll get so focused on my he has a hard time leaving unless there are guns in the field or he's sent on a blind. He's not hunting upland very well at the moment because of this. That's FINE. Someone will say that this makes the dog focus too much on you vs. the field but that would be an incorrect statement. A dog floating in and out of balance is very normal in training. Getting a dog to look out into the field should be very easy and certainly has been with this other dog.

    The dog in the video is very confident and forward focused. She has no problem leaving me. More of a problem staying close by. Just the opposite of her "brother".

    You can teach a dog to 100% focus on you and look out to the targets in the field only when given the command to do that.

    When you're dog will attempt to kill someone, this is a very important skill. It's overlooked in retrievers but very common in dogs that bite for a living. Trust me - they always look at the decoy, no matter how focused they previously were on the handler.

    In the case of the OP the idea isn't to readjust the dogs focus but to build positive attitude into his actions nearby his Dad. This work would have that effect.
    Last edited by DarrinGreene; 03-14-2019 at 07:57 AM.
    Darrin Greene

  8. #16

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    Thanks again everyone for the help. I’m going to do a combination of things. I will begin obedience in the yard with a lot of praise and not collar correction. Then I think I’m going to do walk around blinds using live shackled birds. I’m going to test his progress once a week to see how or if he’s improving. I ran a 250 yard land blind yesterday the collar was on but I left the transmitter in the truck intentionally. I pumped him up before going to the line. He looked like a wild child going to the line but honestly that’s what I need at this point. I was able to tweak him once then turned him loose. Took a great initial line. I’m not exactly sure what drill is working or just my attitude towards him walking to the line changing possibly. We seem to be moving in the right direction. I’m thinking 4 months minimum of this to truly change his attitude. Brick by brick

  9. #17
    Senior Member Steve Shaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarrinGreene View Post
    I might get flamed for this one but here it is...

    Stop running blinds. Do your obedience over with a strong focus on rewarding good behavior rather than punishing bad behavior.

    I'd start giving all the rewards from my jacket pocket, then start letting him pick up some bumpers off the ground once he's really showing me a happy attitude working next to me.

    You need to rebuild the relationship he has to you when he's within the length of his leash (6').

    Then I'd go back to pattern blinds with the goal of little to no handling, on the line or in the field.

    I'd also institute an immediate reward any time I made a correction. Sit - nick - sit - bumper... here - nick - here - bumper from my pocket.... etc...

    It sounds like he needs to be more optimistic when he feels the stim come on. Right now it's driving a big negative. You can reprogram it if it always leads to a reward for some period of time, just like you can program a clicker.

    Here's a video that shows some of what the obedience might look like.

    I have one dog who gets easily out of balance with this, meaning he'll get so focused on my he has a hard time leaving unless there are guns in the field or he's sent on a blind. He's not hunting upland very well at the moment because of this. That's FINE. Someone will say that this makes the dog focus too much on you vs. the field but that would be an incorrect statement. A dog floating in and out of balance is very normal in training. Getting a dog to look out into the field should be very easy and certainly has been with this other dog.

    The dog in the video is very confident and forward focused. She has no problem leaving me. More of a problem staying close by. Just the opposite of her "brother".

    You can teach a dog to 100% focus on you and look out to the targets in the field only when given the command to do that.

    When you're dog will attempt to kill someone, this is a very important skill. It's overlooked in retrievers but very common in dogs that bite for a living. Trust me - they always look at the decoy, no matter how focused they previously were on the handler.

    In the case of the OP the idea isn't to readjust the dogs focus but to build positive attitude into his actions nearby his Dad. This work would have that effect.





    Thanks for your post Darrin. Every time you post I get excited and read right away just so I can tell you how stupid your post is. Been fighting with the ex wife so I am primed for a fight.. Jes kiddin sort of. I do look for your posts because for some reason I find it entertaining to reply to your posts and also you seem to have pretty thick skin and take it well so I can tell you your stupid and not get into a big fight. Just so you and everybody else knows if I call you stupid I do in fun. I would probably not do this to anyone else on the forum so actually Darrin consider yourself special.
    With that being said here is my serious response. I understand and agree with your theories but don't agree with your methods. I would not stop running blinds. I would keep running blinds and work through the problem. I rarely find it productive with dogs or myself in any part of life to avoid a problem.
    I think the original poster knows where he went wrong so I will not harp on that. DO NOT AVOID THE PROBLEM BUT AVOID WHAT CAUSED THE PROBLEM. Identifying the problem is the first step and I think that has been done so now he needs to figure out how to work through it by avoiding what has caused the problem in the first place. This can be a long road. I agree he needs to up the dogs attitude and make thing fun again. I absolutely hate the idea of a treats in my pocket. I do agree that a reward should be given anytime a correction is made but not a treat just praise but I would go very light on corrections. I think this dog has not understood what the corrections were for so he needs to back up and be careful and gradually work back into that. Seems we agree on that sentence just worded different.
    You predicted it so I will say it. I don't like you looking up at you all the time. In your video the dog easily remembers the ball after your OB drill with the other ball but it is only a short distance not a great feat. I totally agree that the dog needs to be aware of you at all times and that is a huge part of teaching basics but I do not agree that he has to have his eyes focused on you to do that. It's a progression from the start and you need to be very thorough with ob and basics. If done right, let me correct that, there is no right or wrong way but lets just say thoroughly you can have the focus on you with out the distraction of treats or clickers. To me they are just unnecessary. Running FT is so unbelievably hard at the AA level and is very much a team sport and the dog MUST be under control have focus on you but at the same time focus in the field. It MUST be a mutual trust between dog and handler. When leaving the holding blind I want the dog figuring out the test on the way to the line but he still needs to remember it is a team sport. This does not happen over night and is a life long project. It is actually extremely easy to teach a dog how to do something. The trick is to set a standard and hold it until it becomes HABIT. There will always be issues pop up and you can never avoid problem and you need to try hard not to do something you have to fix. I still sometime cause my own problems but not as much and as severely as I used to. I now see it happening and realize sooner I need to change my course. Overall Darrin we don't disagree here. I just think things can and should be accomplished without the bribery or distraction of things like treats, it's just not necessary. Sure you can get the dogs attention pretty quick with a treat but treats are not part of the game. Just teach them what you want, it is possible without treats! All of this is easily said but hard to do and that is where the quality of the dog comes in. The ones that are smart enough to do all of this and do it well and be consistent at the AA level are very rare.

  10. #18
    Senior Member bamajeff's Avatar
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    I agree with Charles. Walkaround blinds will do wonders for momentum and confidence. We did a lot of walkrounds during transition and my 2 yr old runs blinds like a shot flyer. I have the opposite problem, he's so confident that he has a tendency to sometimes get a little out of control at the end of a blind if he doesn't line it.
    HRCH Laney's Chocolate Roux MH QAA
    HRCH Full Steam Coaltrain RIP

  11. #19

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    Ok, heres my problem since everyone else has chimed in. I have a really nice marking dog and she is very biddable. Never seen a dog work harder to please. Sits like a statue on the line, great focus. Some blinds she sees in her head and takes off like her heads on fire, others shes slow off the line and also looking over her shoulder and very unsure. Sometimes shes better after a back or cast command, sometimes not and will pop. Ive gotten rid of any ques and I line her up and in training for the most part, let her go. Even if shes off line to build momentum. I dont have a person for walk around blind, but I do use Stickmen in most of my set ups. any thoughts or pearl of wisdom?

  12. #20
    Senior Member bamajeff's Avatar
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    Gregg, have you tried walk arounds? I'm a big believer in using them for momentum and confidence. Walk arounds are not bird boy blinds where you have a helper in the field plant each blind. I was unsure by the way you described them if you were referring to bird boy blinds, because I run walk around blinds all the time without a helper. Sorry if that's not the case.

    On walk arounds, just take her out in the field with you on your 4-wheeler and let her physically see you plant the blinds, then go back to the line and run them. Don't fiddle with her too much just line her up and kick her off like you've said you've been doing. Momentum and confidence will come. She knows there are bumpers out there because she just saw you plant them. She will think she knows where, but they're still a semi cold blind. Text me if you have any questions.
    Last edited by bamajeff; 03-14-2019 at 03:04 PM.
    HRCH Laney's Chocolate Roux MH QAA
    HRCH Full Steam Coaltrain RIP

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