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Thread: Double entry ... legal or not?

  1. #11
    Moderator Renee P.'s Avatar
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    Perhaps they are using the same grounds and marks for all tests, or something similar. A dog entered in two tests would be redoing some of the same marks. Something like that, perhaps.

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  3. #12
    Senior Member crackerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renee P. View Post
    Perhaps they are using the same grounds and marks for all tests, or something similar. A dog entered in two tests would be redoing some of the same marks. Something like that, perhaps.
    No, it's as Eric stated, a bunch of show fanciers who don't know what they're doing making the rules - or rather made the rules years ago.

    A toller could be FC/AFC Red Dawg Miracle MH5 WCX, and could have earned its FCs double-staking in field trials and qualified for and passed five Master Nationals, but the only way it gets the WCX suffix is to run and pass the WC and WCI first before moving on to the WCX.

    MG

  4. #13
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    I would assume a club event, or breed club type event, which isn't technically ran under any organization (AKC, UKC etc). That most likely they can do what they want, not sure why they would care, unless they are trying to keep entries down for some reason. I could see them wanting to do it if it was a rare event not offered very often, and they want to ensure more dogs have access to it, rather than having the same dogs holding spots in every stake. Also if they have limited grounds, are using the same marks and same judges for all the stakes.

    If I'm reading this right you have to run the lower stake prior to being able to run the upper stake, well there's a way to ensure people have to come to your test multiple times. Running a MH+ in a WC, yep that makes prefect "breed club" since .
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 05-20-2019 at 12:29 PM.
    "They's Just DAWGS"; "I train dogs, Not papers"
    "Hunting is a skill to be learned; early or late it still needs to be learned"

    GMHR HRCH Lakota MH (Upland/Duck Enthusiast)
    MHR HRCH Storm MH (Upland/ Waterfowl Enthusiast)
    HR Banshi (problem child #3) - HR Trap (male-chocolate he's "special")

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  6. #14
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    The WC is a level in the club testing program. It appears that they assumed that what was good for the club program was good the AKC test. The argument WRT the single entry in the club program is that these may be small events such that the judges will judge two stakes and use elements of one for elements of the other. That's probably valid. For instance, the WCI is a land double whereas the WCX is a land triple. I once judged where we had wide open marks for the WCI and then used the same field for the WCX with the third mark in between the WCI double marks. With a club program and only two ets of judges for 4 levels of tests, that;s legitimate. However, this is an AKC test where the entries may not be so small that they can get away with doubling up the judge's assignment.
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy") ... as is her daughter
    SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH WC ("Muse") ... gone now also
    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie") ... also gone
    Struan's Just Plain Perfect ("Jane")
    NSDTR/CH Struan's Driving Us Crazy JH WCI ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge
    Honeyrun's Duchess of Argyll ("Socks")
    Dixie ... the "spare parts" dog

  7. #15
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    Hunt'EmUp

    No. Just the opposite. IF this were the club event, I could see in some situations a double entry would be a problem. However, this is an AKC licensed hunt test. The entry levels could be quite big ... bigger than they expect.
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy") ... as is her daughter
    SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH WC ("Muse") ... gone now also
    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie") ... also gone
    Struan's Just Plain Perfect ("Jane")
    NSDTR/CH Struan's Driving Us Crazy JH WCI ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge
    Honeyrun's Duchess of Argyll ("Socks")
    Dixie ... the "spare parts" dog

  8. #16
    Senior Member Mark Littlejohn's Avatar
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    Have you asked the Event Chairman or Secretary? I've had situations where I called to question a premium and ended up getting it changed because the club either didn't know, or chose to ignore the rules.

  9. #17
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Johnson View Post
    Hunt'EmUp

    No. Just the opposite. IF this were the club event, I could see in some situations a double entry would be a problem. However, this is an AKC licensed hunt test. The entry levels could be quite big ... bigger than they expect.
    Just A regular AKC retriever Hunt -test, not a specialty or some such? Not sure how they could do it then, AKC rules-rulebook allows Dogs to double stake. Never heard of any situation, where a club can just decide to post that dogs can't. That would have to go through committees and voting just as the ability to limit stakes did. You also can't double up on judges in an AKC test, each stake needs to have their own, if running on the same day. So basically makes no since I would bet there's a mistake, maybe someone copy and pastes an old club event premium; didn't change it for the new event.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 05-20-2019 at 02:46 PM.
    "They's Just DAWGS"; "I train dogs, Not papers"
    "Hunting is a skill to be learned; early or late it still needs to be learned"

    GMHR HRCH Lakota MH (Upland/Duck Enthusiast)
    MHR HRCH Storm MH (Upland/ Waterfowl Enthusiast)
    HR Banshi (problem child #3) - HR Trap (male-chocolate he's "special")

  10. #18
    Moderator Renee P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Johnson View Post
    The WC is a level in the club testing program. It appears that they assumed that what was good for the club program was good the AKC test. The argument WRT the single entry in the club program is that these may be small events such that the judges will judge two stakes and use elements of one for elements of the other. That's probably valid. For instance, the WCI is a land double whereas the WCX is a land triple. I once judged where we had wide open marks for the WCI and then used the same field for the WCX with the third mark in between the WCI double marks. With a club program and only two ets of judges for 4 levels of tests, that;s legitimate. However, this is an AKC test where the entries may not be so small that they can get away with doubling up the judge's assignment.
    The premium is not submitted as part of the application for AKC HT or FT. Take a look at the online application form to see what they require - they want the event chairman, the event secretary, the event committee, the emergency plan, and the judges panel. After the judge panel is approved, AKC asks for the premium. I have EE do our application, and I get an email from AKC confirming the judge panel has been approved which includes a reminder to submit the premium.

    In the HT rules it says that the club can decline entries for cause which involves filing a report with AKC:

    "Section 17. Declining Entries. The Hunting Test Committee may decline any entries or may remove any dog from its event for cause, but in each such instance shall file in a timely manner, good and sufficient reason for doing so with the AKC Performance Events Department."
    Last edited by Renee P.; 05-20-2019 at 02:55 PM.

  11. #19
    Moderator Renee P.'s Avatar
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    So the premium is saying you can't do something like enter the same dog in a Junior test and a Senior test during the one event?

  12. #20
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    Renee - You are correct. A double entry is not allowed.
    Eric

    WRC HR Lennoxlove's Run with Wolves JH, WCX ("Cheyenne") ... still so fondly remembered
    HRCh Struan's Devil's in De Tails SH, WCX ("Lucy") ... as is her daughter
    SR CH Struan's Flight of Fancy JH WC ("Muse") ... gone now also
    Struan's Master of the Hunt JH, WC ("Charlie") ... also gone
    Struan's Just Plain Perfect ("Jane")
    NSDTR/CH Struan's Driving Us Crazy JH WCI ("Daisy") ... the baby in charge
    Honeyrun's Duchess of Argyll ("Socks")
    Dixie ... the "spare parts" dog

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