Why the desire for 'old school pedigrees'?
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Thread: Why the desire for 'old school pedigrees'?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    Default Why the desire for 'old school pedigrees'?

    I understand the nostalgia - the desire to be able to turn back the clock and have an opportunity to 'see what might have been'....

    But what is wrong with 'recent pedigrees'? Don't they all come from 'old school pedigrees'?

    Still living dogs that don't have 'old school pedigrees' - who have finished multiple nationals ...they aren't great dogs? Tubbs? Mully? (others I don't know)... And what of the 5 dogs running the last series who have finished at least one national before this year? We could not consider them 'great' dogs due the same respect of those with 'old school pedigrees' ?

    Genuinely curious....
    The way I look at it, every dog is an opportunity to be a better trainer, and every day is a new day to be a better trainer to the same dog we trained yesterday.

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    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    A great performer may not be a great producer. With an older pedigree, you have more history available to consider. You know more about what worked, what didn't work, performance qualities, and health characteristics. Moreover, if you subscribe to Ed's theory of thought - and I do - there are more very good dogs running today - and fewer great ones.
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    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    From the perspective of being able to choose a stud dog who was successful.... both as a competitor and producer, I understand. The ability to keep semen stored for eternity... maybe a good thing... maybe not. LOL... soon it will be eggs, if not already... hahahaha....

    What I want to know is "WHY" there are not so many 'great' dogs.... what happened in the breeding choices that caused this? ( and while it is a rather subjective matter - I would tend to think people who've been in the game long enough to see the changes, would know)
    The way I look at it, every dog is an opportunity to be a better trainer, and every day is a new day to be a better trainer to the same dog we trained yesterday.

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    Senior Member Bryan Parks's Avatar
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    I think like others mentioned it is about knowing what the stud dog produced.

    By the you have enough information on a stud they are either to old to breed naturally or dead.

    You have more data to analyze on old studs that may have been gone for years.
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    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Parks View Post
    I think like others mentioned it is about knowing what the stud dog produced.

    By the you have enough information on a stud they are either to old to breed naturally or dead.

    You have more data to analyze on old studs that may have been gone for years.
    One can analyze to their hearts content... the stud only brings half the equation...and some say less than half? So..... it seems more likely that the bitch lines (which would be 'current day pedigrees' in a majority of breedings) would be equally or more important.

    Seems there was a Lean Mac breeding a couple of years ago? to a Seaside bitch? Dora? what happened to those pups? are they running q's yet?
    Cosmo is also one who has seen a lot of breedings as of late... one advertised just today.....
    The way I look at it, every dog is an opportunity to be a better trainer, and every day is a new day to be a better trainer to the same dog we trained yesterday.

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    Senior Member ErinsEdge's Avatar
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    For most it's for marketing purposes. You have several people buying up old frozen semen. Most of the frozen semen on really great dogs, if any, is not available, and certainly not available to be used on untitled females like is being done.
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    I am going to take a stab at this. Before I do, I need to mention that quite a few friends and mentors helped me to understand how to really look at a pedigree, looking past the titles, to look at proven producers, compatibility, sibilings, trends, ect.

    I have a pup on the way from Pow x QAA/MH female. First, my friend owns the female, and I've seen her work, so I am somewhat familiar with her attitude and skill. Second, I have seen several of the damn's littermates and siblings, many of which are QAA or some type of Field Champion. Third, the damn's previous breeding was with Mighty Mouse, who has a similar pedigree to Pow (his mother is Pow's sister). That litter produced some pups on the NDL, and some others that are running MH at a young age. Pow as a stud, is a proven producer, his brothers are good producers, and his father was a good producer. She has shown that she can produce with a similar pedigreed male as Pow. So, for a few reasons, this litter worked for me.

    *edit: this is not the breeding on Huntinglabpedigree.com*

    Hopefully this sort of answers the question.
    Last edited by Windjammer; 06-23-2019 at 05:15 PM.
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    Senior Member Bryan Parks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Parks View Post
    I think like others mentioned it is about knowing what the stud dog produced.

    By the you have enough information on a stud they are either to old to breed naturally or dead.

    You have more data to analyze on old studs that may have been gone for years.
    One can analyze to their hearts content... the stud only brings half the equation...and some say less than half? So..... it seems more likely that the bitch lines (which would be 'current day pedigrees' in a majority of breedings) would be equally or more important.

    Seems there was a Lean Mac breeding a couple of years ago? to a Seaside bitch? Dora? what happened to those pups? are they running q's yet?
    Cosmo is also one who has seen a lot of breedings as of late... one advertised just today.....
    Well of course it is but that doesn't change the fact you know more about a stud that's had a ton of litters with various females from different lines. You can research and see what they produced.

    I bet if you could pull some Lottie eggs and actually use them they'd go for more than any straw around.
    Last edited by Bryan Parks; 06-23-2019 at 09:26 AM.
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    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    Older studs older pedigrees; have a track record. You can go and see who they were bred to and what resulted out of them. The proven producers really start to stand out usually well after they are able to produce naturally. They can be crossed to several different females and have shown results. Whereas the newer studs, don't have the track record. Yes they are getting bred, yes their pups may be great; but then again they could just as easily be the flavor of the month that gets bred a bunch, dogs all over the derby list, but years later. Whatever happened to those super start derby dogs? Where are the mulitple FC-AFC? I believe this is why, many will pay attention to the historic line-dogs; as they have shown they can produce AA dogs; somewhat consistently; because they've already done it.
    Last edited by Hunt'EmUp; 06-24-2019 at 01:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    Moreover, if you subscribe to Ed's theory of thought - and I do - there are more very good dogs running today - and fewer great ones.
    I hesitate to even ask this question because MOST people on this forum do not REALLY know the answer like Dr. Ed (or you Ted) might... but MOST people will be happy to tell you their opinion based on stats or if they saw the dog once etc etc. And if that person has only seen a "very good dog" (insert any FC/AFC)...then a person might think that dog is GREAT one. But only because they have never truly witnessed a GREAT one. Only people with over a decade of experience in FT's can truly answer this question (IMO).

    So, who are the "Great Ones" running TODAY? (not historically...but running today...or are there any?).

    I know I could guess at some names based on research of current dogs...but stats don't always tell the full story. Different areas of the country have much different competition on a weekly basis. Or in other words an FC in Utah might not be an FC yet if they were running the Georgia circuit (or wherever)...

    So..who are the current great ones running right now?

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