Handle vs Recall vs Help
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Thread: Handle vs Recall vs Help

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    Senior Member Sabireley's Avatar
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    Most of us follow some program derived from Rex Carr and popularized through some video programs and generally followed by the pros in the sport. There are many variations, but Force Fetch, Pile Work, T and/or TT, Swimby, pattern blinds (maybe) then blinds. At the same timeline singles, singles off multiple guns, decheating, complex cheaters, retired guns. And yard drills like no no, wagon wheel, casting drills etc. at the end we have a transition dog.

    During this time we attempt to sort out the attributes and tendencies of the dog we have and how it deals with the various training setups we create to teach or test them in the quest for and all age or master level dog.

    In marking setups we train on many things to try to prepare them for what they will see in weekend marking tests. A lot of my training is around concepts and factors where I want to challenge the dog and train the dog so it is familiar with and can sort out similar situations it will see in competition.

    In an effort to train the dog, how do you decide when when to handle, when to recall, and when to have gunner help? How do you know if the dog forgot, it’s not trying, it’s not smart enough, lacks heart, or not schooled enough to do the setup? How does your response to the failed mark change in light of the reason for the failure?
    Last edited by Sabireley; 07-26-2019 at 08:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabireley View Post

    In an effort to train the dog, how do you sort out when to handle, when to recall, and when to have gunner help? How do you know if the dog forgot, it’s not trying, it’s not smart enough, lacks heart, or not schooled enough to do the setup? How does your response to the failed mark change in light of the reason for the failure?
    To fully answer these questions you will have to wait for my editor to release the 2 volume set.


    Deciding on the "why" and the response to a missed mark requires an accurate evaluation of the complexity and factors of the mark and how that compares to the dogs's level of training plus your read of the dog as the marks are being thrown and how the dog sets-up.
    In general terms failing/ or poor performance due to:
    Not smart enough or not schooled enough is my fault. This will generally merit simplifying the mark closer to the dog's ability, a recall and re-throw as a single is often needed.
    Not negotiating a factor in route to the area will many times require handling. Cheating a factor may involve handling with a correction.
    If a dog shows me in training that they do not remember I will "refresh their memory" (maybe un-retire/flash, silent re-throw....)
    Problems once the dog reaches the area of fall I generally ask the gunner to help.

    Sometimes there is no reason, they just have a bad day and screw up

    Tim
    Last edited by Tim Carrion; 07-26-2019 at 09:34 PM.
    You order a Lab; ask a Golden; but negotiate with a Chesapeake!

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    Senior Member captainjack's Avatar
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    Hard to say. It changes depending on the dog. Let me preface by saying that “failing the mark” likely means different things to different people. It’s not only about getting the bird in training.

    Although hard to say for certain, there are some almost always responses for me.
    I almost always get help for dogs missing a short retired. It requires a relaxed dog, so I don’t want pressure, so I don’t handle and risk the chance I’ll need to give a correction.
    I almost always handle when I read the dog has given in to a factor (even if I believe he will get the bird). The moment I read the dog has given in, I blow the whistle. Fade with wind, square a ditch, square up or fall off a slope = toot + cast.

    I almost always get help when I feel the dog simply forgot the mark. Handling a dog that has forgotten a mark doesn’t teach anything imo.

    I almost always get help if my dog makes the aof, but can’t come up with bird. Handling around the gun is too risky to do often. I don’t want to lower my standards, but I also want to avoid collar corrections near the gunner.

    It’s at least as much art as science.
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    Tim mail me both volumes, please.
    Gentle in what you do. Firm in how you do it.

    CH SILVERCREEK MURRAY SAMUEL (MURRAY) WDQ CGC MH, QAA2 2/16/00 - 12/26/12
    WESTWIND WHISPERING COVE (LARRY son of Murray) WDQ MH, QAA2 8/5/05-3/20/18
    LPK DELAWARE RIVER WHISPERING COVE, WDQ, QAA2, MH (SAVAGE SAM son of FC Chester MH)
    WESTWIND WHISPERING COVE JAY QAA, MH (Larry's son and Murray's grandson)

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    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    This is a subject that interests me.

    I have seen the negative effects of the overuse of all three -
    too much gunner help, dog runs to the gunner
    too much handling, dog becomes lazy and dependent on the handler
    too much calling back/resending (haven't seen this as often) - no goes, popping

    In all three above scenarios, I believe the dog also becomes lazy with regards to marking. Loses confidence in himself and in the case of handling or calling back in, can become unmotivated (looking out in the field and seeing trouble).....

    Teaching a dog how to make a retrieve properly - for me, at any rate - happens in a linear fashion and is not really any different than teaching a dog to run a blind. You can't run technical multiples until you can run technical singles, run singles off of multiple guns, run taught doubles, delayed triples/quads, marks picked up after running a blind, and finally 'cold' multiple marks.

    I really prefer not to handle on marks. I don't spend much time on cheating singles (lack of gunner help makes it more challenging to do cheating singles). I spend more time teaching the proper line/path and normally do so by first breaking the mark down - starting short and going back), calling back and resending as needed only when it is 'absolutely clear' to the dog what the right path is. I might also allow the dog to take the incorrect route for a time then call back partway and cast the dog to the correct line.

    Right or wrong, it is how I train when it comes to marking...Much of how I react to a dog's decisions is based on what the dog has learned thus far, the experiences/successes up to that point.. If my dog is truly lost - gunner help (if I have it).. If the dog doesn't remember the mark - rethrow (standout would work too if I had that option, but I usually don't because I am training alone 99% of the time).. I am always open to learning other ways.

    For me, teaching a dog to fight the wind is the most difficult aspect of teaching 'lining'....
    The way I look at it, every dog is an opportunity to be a better trainer, and every day is a new day to be a better trainer to the same dog we trained yesterday.

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    Tobias do you do hunt tests or field trials and what level? Just makes it easy to assess your advice.
    Gentle in what you do. Firm in how you do it.

    CH SILVERCREEK MURRAY SAMUEL (MURRAY) WDQ CGC MH, QAA2 2/16/00 - 12/26/12
    WESTWIND WHISPERING COVE (LARRY son of Murray) WDQ MH, QAA2 8/5/05-3/20/18
    LPK DELAWARE RIVER WHISPERING COVE, WDQ, QAA2, MH (SAVAGE SAM son of FC Chester MH)
    WESTWIND WHISPERING COVE JAY QAA, MH (Larry's son and Murray's grandson)

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    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moscowitz View Post
    Tobias do you do hunt tests or field trials and what level? Just makes it easy to assess your advice.
    I train advanced level search and rescue dogs... they search (for) and rescue wounded birds... I have even taught them how to give chest compressions and cpr. It is very impressive. I will video for you sometime.

    What part of my post indicates I was giving advice?
    The way I look at it, every dog is an opportunity to be a better trainer, and every day is a new day to be a better trainer to the same dog we trained yesterday.

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    Steve I think you can also add vs correction. Like a lot of answers in dog training "it depends" . You have to be able to determine "read" each dog and why or what it is doing at the time. I did 2 down the shore this morning and 2 dogs tried to get out early on the long bird. With one dog I handled because I know she is young and learning. The other I knew he knew better so I let him get out corrected him called him back and resent. Went right to bird. I like these posts and hope to keep learning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabireley View Post
    In an effort to train the dog, how do you decide when when to handle, when to recall, and when to have gunner help?
    How do you know if the dog forgot, it’s not trying, it’s not smart enough, lacks heart, or not schooled enough to do the setup? How does your
    response to the failed mark change in light of the reason for the failure?
    There was a thread some time back about having the knack. If you don't have the knack your dogs will always probably be also-rans.
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  12. #10
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    Tobias not necessary to post video. Got my answer.
    Gentle in what you do. Firm in how you do it.

    CH SILVERCREEK MURRAY SAMUEL (MURRAY) WDQ CGC MH, QAA2 2/16/00 - 12/26/12
    WESTWIND WHISPERING COVE (LARRY son of Murray) WDQ MH, QAA2 8/5/05-3/20/18
    LPK DELAWARE RIVER WHISPERING COVE, WDQ, QAA2, MH (SAVAGE SAM son of FC Chester MH)
    WESTWIND WHISPERING COVE JAY QAA, MH (Larry's son and Murray's grandson)

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