going back to the blind considered going back to an old fall? Hunt test question - Page 2
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Thread: going back to the blind considered going back to an old fall? Hunt test question

  1. #11
    Senior Member Mark Littlejohn's Avatar
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    I haven't run a Sr HT in over 10 years and I remember this rule:

    Section 6. Senior Hunting Test. Dogs shall be tested in a minimum of four hunting situations that shall include one land blind, one water blind (that may be run as a double blind on land and water), one double land mark, and one double water mark. There shall be at least one diversion shot and at least one of the hunting situations shall include a walk-up. In Senior tests, a double mark is defined as two marks presented before the dog is sent to retrieve. Blinds shall not be run between marks in Senior Hunting Tests.



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  3. #12
    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    If the marks have not been thrown yet... then the blind 'technically' is not between the marks... correct? may be a loophole, and I wonder how often it happens... But, in some respects, I would rather have this, than a blind which is tight behind the flier station with wind blowing across the line to the blind. LOL
    The way I look at it, every dog is an opportunity to be a better trainer, and every day is a new day to be a better trainer to the same dog we trained yesterday.

  4. #13
    Senior Member Mark Littlejohn's Avatar
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    The rule reads pretty clear to me. "Shall not"- period. Doesn't stipulate which precedes the other, probably for a reason.
    Does the blind influence the marks or did old marks influence the blind?
    I'd say it doesn't matter, and this test would not have been permitted if I were Committee.

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  6. #14
    Senior Member dorkweed's Avatar
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    JIMHO; piss poor test set up by the judges. Very likely judges that've only run, and not trained dogs at that level!!! Just saying. Likely never would be allowed in an HRC Seasoned test if the judges have attended their seminars.
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  7. #15
    Senior Member jacduck's Avatar
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    Quickly read through and my thoughts are too often judges setups are dictated by the area they have to work with so it is easy for me not to judge the judges as some already have done. On a personal note I have seen water marks with land blinds and vice a versa because of locations to avoid this kind of problem.

    As far as ask a judge the question, I have a friend judge (probably only one) who preceded his setup talk with "don't paint judges into a corner with a specific question." I agree and have heard judges answer questions like that with "you run the dog and we will judge accordingly." Mostly single situations are not what passes or fails a dog.

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  8. #16
    Senior Member Hunt'EmUp's Avatar
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    I have seen this senario where judge due to limited grounds have to run the blind first, the blind is considered it's own series, and thus not an old fall. The marking series is likewise "it's own series" a blind cannot be ran inbtw marks so the prior "blind" cannot be considered in play. However just because the judges can't judge it as returning to an old fall, doesn't mean your dog won't return to it and perhaps forget his mark completely. So if I had a handle, and thought my dog was going to be overly tempted, I would most likely use it. Although I don't believe you'd be overly penalized if the two areas were close to each other and your dog investigated both scent areas then went to pick up the mark. For what ever reason the judges were forced to setup the series this way; they should be expecting dogs to be tempted by the blind and allow consideration for either a handle or distracted hunt.
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  9. #17
    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    Good test or not, I guess I am more curious about what a judge might have done if the handler had allowed the dog to go back to the blind... OR, for those here who are judges, how you might have judged a handler allowing the dog to go back to the blind and establish a hunt, and most likely finding the mark, at some point, without a handle.
    The way I look at it, every dog is an opportunity to be a better trainer, and every day is a new day to be a better trainer to the same dog we trained yesterday.

  10. #18
    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunt'EmUp View Post
    I have seen this senario where judge due to limited grounds have to run the blind first, the blind is considered it's own series, and thus not an old fall. The marking series is likewise "it's own series" a blind cannot be ran inbtw marks so the prior "blind" cannot be considered in play. However just because the judges can't judge it as returning to an old fall, doesn't mean your dog won't return to it and perhaps forget his mark completely. So if I had a handle, and thought my dog was going to be overly tempted, I would most likely use it. Although I don't believe you'd be overly penalized if the two areas were close to each other and your dog investigated both scent areas then went to pick up the mark. For what ever reason the judges were forced to setup the series this way; they should be expecting dogs to be tempted by the blind and allow consideration for either a handle or distracted hunt.
    Thanks Hunt'em Up... appreciate you input (esp from an exp perspective)
    The way I look at it, every dog is an opportunity to be a better trainer, and every day is a new day to be a better trainer to the same dog we trained yesterday.

  11. #19
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    All my upbringing says...

    Pretty shitty move to show a young dog a channel, and then run a blind up that channel, and then expect them to cut the corner of the same picture and pick up another bird nearby. Very shitty, in fact.

    As soon as you start having to talk about technicalities to make something work - there's a problem. "The blind is it's own series" is BS. It may be on paper, but it certainly isn't to the dog.

    I would hope the judges were forced into the scenario and broke the point off their pencils before judging that one.

    Goes to show how ineffective the 35 levels of apprenticeship are in getting to quality judging scenarios.
    Darrin Greene

  12. #20
    Senior Member Tobias's Avatar
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    I would like to point out, it was a pretty wide 'channel'... I couldn't really call it a cove, at the end it was about 35 yd across, I guess...
    The way I look at it, every dog is an opportunity to be a better trainer, and every day is a new day to be a better trainer to the same dog we trained yesterday.

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