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Thread: Camel's Back?

  1. #21
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegillam View Post
    How do we know current laws are as effective as enacting additional restrictions? Until we enact and research additional methods, everything is a guess. If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you have always gotten. Change is difficult for everyone, however there is some research data that shows certain restrictions can have a positive impact on gun deaths. I don’t know that wait periods, red flag laws, limiting large capacity magazines, etc...infringes on anyone’s rights.
    Possibly. Problem is that laws, once enacted, are very difficult to get rid of. Every new regulation passed, whether involving guns or soda size, is designed to restrict individual freedom.
    Any doctrine that weakens personal responsibility for judgment and for action helps create the attitudes that welcome and support the totalitarian state.
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  3. #22
    Senior Member nogie1717's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker & Jessie View Post
    If you could cut that number in half, it would be far too many. I'm suggesting that current methods are as effective as any without infringing on rights. I'm sure if we required people to wear crash helmets in cars and other public conveyances, lives would be saved. How stupid would that be? Stricter gun laws have not shown to be effective. Chicago is a great example. My position is if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
    Fair enough. I feel the same way and that current gun laws are as effective as they will be in preventing these types of violent crimes. Will background checks and "mental health" protections offer any reduction in these events? I don't think so, but I'm merely guessing. Neil Tyson DeGrasse (sp?) brought up some good numbers relating to suicide and hospital errors and was persecuted online. Most of us recognize that he wasn't trying to minimize these tragedies, rather he was trying to put them into a more accurate perspective.

    Personally, I feel that the issue is one of culture and the biggest step the nation could take wouldn't be a 2nd Amendment one, but a 1st Amendment regulation and keep media outlets from sensationalizing and over hyping the matter. Thank you for your candor and honest response. I'm glad you understand that I was asking a legitimate question for sake of discussion.
    Last edited by nogie1717; 08-07-2019 at 06:01 PM.
    Lucas Nogelmeier
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  4. #23
    Senior Member HPL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogie1717 View Post
    Fair enough. I feel the same way and that current gun laws are as effective as they will be in preventing these types of violent crimes. Will background checks and "mental health" protections offer any reduction in these events? I don't think so, but I'm merely guessing. Neil Tyson DeGrasse (sp?) brought up some good numbers relating to suicide and hospital errors and was persecuted online. Most of us recognize that he wasn't trying to minimize these tragedies, rather he was trying to put them into a more accurate perspective.

    Personally, I feel that the issue is one of culture and the biggest step the nation could take wouldn't be a 2nd Amendment one, but a 1st Amendment regulation and keep media outlets from sensationalizing and over hyping the matter.
    I have said for years that if one looks at the numbers, the chance of being shot, or having a child, friend, or relative shot in one of these "dramatic" shootings is so unlikely as to be nearly nonexistent. Children are still MUCH safer at school than at home. They are tragedies for those involved, but, they statistically, don't exist.

    As to the 1st amendment, I am a pretty staunch supporter of that too, but it would be nice if our popular culture wouldn't glorify violence so much. I have to wonder what effect all the violence we are exposed to in the popular media, including hyper-violent movies and video games.
    Any doctrine that weakens personal responsibility for judgment and for action helps create the attitudes that welcome and support the totalitarian state.
    (John Dewey)

    Associate yourself with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for 'tis better to be alone than in bad company.
    (George Washington)

    Gig'em Aggies!! BTCO'77HOO t.u.!!

    www.HughLieck.photoshelter.com

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  6. #24
    Senior Member swampcollielover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegillam View Post
    As a High school principal for about 20 years, I can tell you I saw a wide range of behaviors that didn’t mean a person would become a murderer. Does a 14 yr old student making a hit list mean he will be a mass murderer.? Maybe. Maybe not. Does it mean they get expelled and reported to police. Yes. Does that mean they will get counseling? Maybe. I don’t think in the last 20 years, talk of violence has been ignored by any school personnel, my experience is that, if anything, things that are not really an issue, get reported just because of an aver abundance of caution. Identification of personality disorders and mental health issues have become more and more common, as medicine and science understand the hows and whys. Depression, bi polar, autism spectrum, ptsd, are all seen more and more, not necessarily because there are more people who have “issues”, but because the science of identification has improved. Many mental health identifications can be treated with medication, some must be treated with meds and counseling. I am not sure where you think political correctness determines who/who doesn’t get identified or reported, but I would like to hear your experience.
    Mike...I appreciate your perspective andexpertise from teaching! All you say is true, and I think you are sayingthat teachers and Administrators recognize kids that have 'issues'! Youalso kind of suggested that knowing that is not enough in today's world to dealwith each individual case. Regardless, we are limited in what we can dowith kids that are seems as potentially violent. But, why couldn't we puttheir names on a 'no gun list' so they could not go out and get a gunlegally? This would stay with them until they take the initiative
    to gethelp from a qualified phycologist/Counselor or.....whatever! The point is if teachers, parents, ormultiple family members thinks someone is at risk person, why can't we stopthem from buying guns, until they prove they are not a threat...


    Nothingwill catch them all, but something like this may slow them down or just make itto hard for them to take the risks....you also, may catch some folks who are suicidal....

  7. #25
    Senior Member swampcollielover's Avatar
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    I came accross an article that I thought was good regarding mass shootings. I know some of you do not like the American Spectator, but this article, I think hits a few key points. I have not fact checked any of the data, but I have heard much of this in other reading that followed other shootings. If you are interested the complete article is available on line...

    American Spectator, August 7, 2019
    The real cause of the shootings, By Frank Friday

    …we actually know quite a bit about why these disturbed men become mass shooters, and it has nothing to do with their politics. Researchers, for example, have found that something like 60% of mass shooters had a mental illness. The Secret Service puts the number at 67%. (Unfortunately, the politically correct American Psychiatric Association likes to downplay these numbers, lest we "stigmatize" the mentally ill.) I suspect that these may even be lowball estimates, as, often, where the shooter died in the incident, there was not enough information left to properly diagnose a particular mental illness. My own personal experience from years in the courthouse confirms all this. Really violent, senseless acts all seem to come down to severe schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.
    Less than 2% of the population suffers from either or both these conditions, but they occur in over 20% of the homeless population, and chronic drug abuse makes things much worse. Marijuana, which might be tolerated by a lot of the adult population without great consequence, seems to have a terrible effect on the brains of young men with these mental diseases — diseases that start to reveal themselves only in the late teens and early 20s.

  8. #26
    Senior Member sick lids's Avatar
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    1. Enforce all federal gun laws.
    2. Require a high school diploma,college degree or honorable discharge to be able to legally own a gun.
    3. KYC+AML to be able to purchase a firearm.
    4. Figure out a way to make felons or those prohibited from gun ownership readily identifiable to everyone so that they cannot accidentally be sold a gun thru private sales. Or give up our right so sell privately, all sales go thru FFL dealers.
    5. Get rid of gun free zones.
    6. End war on drugs.

  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegillam View Post
    I don’t know that wait periods, red flag laws, limiting large capacity magazines, etc...infringes on anyone’s rights.
    If you didn't own a firearm, and an ex-boyfriend/girlfriend threatened to kill you, does a 10 day waiting period infringe on you right to bear arms? "…………the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

  10. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegillam View Post
    ?...... I don’t know that wait periods, red flag laws, limiting large capacity magazines, etc...infringes on anyone’s rights.
    Thats just it. You don't know. Nobody does. Stop worrying about the guns and address the nut jobs wielding them. Both of these murderers could have just as easily driven a car into a crowd of innocent bystanders. Here's an idea. Let's ban gatherings of more than two people. Oh, wait. I guess that would infringe on someone's rights. Freedom is expensive!
    I used to be M&Ks Retrievers but for some reason I could no longer post. Ya think the mods trying to tell me something?

  11. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegillam View Post
    I don’t know that wait periods, red flag laws, limiting large capacity magazines, etc...infringes on anyone’s rights.
    Well they do, specifically the second and fourth amendments.
    "I'm thankful someone stood up to him, even if it was a woman." Franco 10/18/19

  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by sick lids View Post
    1. Enforce all federal gun laws.
    2. Require a high school diploma,college degree or honorable discharge to be able to legally own a gun.
    3. KYC+AML to be able to purchase a firearm.
    4. Figure out a way to make felons or those prohibited from gun ownership readily identifiable to everyone so that they cannot accidentally be sold a gun thru private sales. Or give up our right so sell privately, all sales go thru FFL dealers.
    5. Get rid of gun free zones.
    6. End war on drugs.
    No problem with 1,5,&6
    In regards to 2/3 and 4 are you out of your mind.?

    I suggest can you be required to take a different KYC course:
    One entitled Know Your Constitution

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