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Thread: Crime and Poverty

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    Senior Member Mikegillam's Avatar
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    Default Crime and Poverty

    I found this to be a pretty insightful article on crime and poverty. I have not fact checked the stats. I do believe that poverty is the single biggest issue we face as a country. Poverty, rural and urban, black and white, has a detrimental effect on education, earnings, violence, and crime. https://vittana.org/26-poverty-and-crime-statistics
    " Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, (red) wine in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!" Unknown

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    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegillam View Post
    I found this to be a pretty insightful article on crime and poverty. I have not fact checked the stats. I do believe that poverty is the single biggest issue we face as a country. Poverty, rural and urban, black and white, has a detrimental effect on education, earnings, violence, and crime. https://vittana.org/26-poverty-and-crime-statistics
    Interesting article. My only real issue is the basic assumption that poverty causes crime. While there is obviously a correlation, I've never seen causation proven. Many seem to just accept as "common sense" that poor people are desperate and therefore more likely to view crime as a reasonable alternative.
    While I have no proof to support my hypothesis, I believe that it is just as likely that both poverty and criminal behavior are results of the same behavioral patterns and value systems.

    So what brought you to the conclusion that poverty is the single biggest issue we face as a country?
    What, in your opinion, if anything, should be done about it?
    Matt McKenzie

    "Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it." Henry Ford

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    Senior Member swampcollielover's Avatar
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    Since President Johnson 'Great Society' back in the 60's where the massive welfare system was put together by Congress, nothing was improved. We still have 'poverty' although the definition of proverty has changed. People that are poor have crime and illegal drug usage throughout their communities! Governments only solutions continues to be throwing more money at the problem!

    One thing we have all learned is that more money does nothing to change these problems, and may actually enable vs. help people get out of poverty.

    The Democratic/Socialists always throw more money at the problem, making sure the people know who is sending the money...so they keep the votes!

    Some states are starting to build incentives into welfare systems, I think this is a much better way to change the system, but I am not sure our politicians are welling to go down that road....!

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    Senior Member Mikegillam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt McKenzie View Post
    Interesting article. My only real issue is the basic assumption that poverty causes crime. While there is obviously a correlation, I've never seen causation proven. Many seem to just accept as "common sense" that poor people are desperate and therefore more likely to view crime as a reasonable alternative.
    While I have no proof to support my hypothesis, I believe that it is just as likely that both poverty and criminal behavior are results of the same behavioral patterns and value systems.

    So what brought you to the conclusion that poverty is the single biggest issue we face as a country?
    What, in your opinion, if anything, should be done about it?
    I agree that poverty does not cause crime. Crime is a symptom/effect of poverty, as is lower levels of educational attainment, poorer health, living in poor environmental areas, less access to healthy foods, etc...poverty and education could be interchanged. Like all large social ills, there is no one answer, and finding answers to meet the problems would take years/decades to make a meaningful impact. Thoughts I have? Maybe instead of giving corporations a massive tax break in which 80% only bought back stocks (good for me bad for those who need it more), build a plant in a high poverty area, hire/train a % of local residents, in exchange for tax breaks. We know that health issues, physical and mental will impact parenting, working, etc...and yet politicians are talking about taking health care always from millions, who are most in need. Getting teachers to work in high poverty areas is incredibly difficult, pay those teachers to work in these areas. When I started teaching 35 years ago, I was able to have much of my student loans deferred or canceled by teaching in high poverty districts. Seattle is experimenting with a program to help families move out of public housing. Critics of the poor often think these families want to live where they have to, that they don’t want change. Seattle’s program is finding that is not true. I will try to find the link and include. Criminal justice reform has to be a part of the solution, without going into details, the criminal justice system is not a fair and equal system to all. So, there are a few ideas...
    " Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, (red) wine in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!" Unknown

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    Senior Member Mikegillam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampcollielover View Post
    Since President Johnson 'Great Society' back in the 60's where the massive welfare system was put together by Congress, nothing was improved. We still have 'poverty' although the definition of proverty has changed. People that are poor have crime and illegal drug usage throughout their communities! Governments only solutions continues to be throwing more money at the problem!

    One thing we have all learned is that more money does nothing to change these problems, and may actually enable vs. help people get out of poverty.

    The Democratic/Socialists always throw more money at the problem, making sure the people know who is sending the money...so they keep the votes!

    Some states are starting to build incentives into welfare systems, I think this is a much better way to change the system, but I am not sure our politicians are welling to go down that road....!

    Swampdog, you are correct about the war on poverty. Johnson came into Ohio and used the people of Athens County to highlight the extreme poverty. Politicians from both sides came, Took pictures, press came and wrote articles, used the people for their own personal gain. What came of that? Not much. There are still a handful of people in Athens County who do not have running water, and the extreme poverty is still there. Money is certainly a part of it, jobs, education, etc...but mostly, it will take people who really want to help and are willing to try a number of solutions.
    " Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, (red) wine in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!" Unknown

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    Senior Member Mikegillam's Avatar
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    " Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, (red) wine in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!" Unknown

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    Senior Member Matt McKenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegillam View Post
    I agree that poverty does not cause crime. Crime is a symptom/effect of poverty, as is lower levels of educational attainment, poorer health, living in poor environmental areas, less access to healthy foods, etc...poverty and education could be interchanged. Like all large social ills, there is no one answer, and finding answers to meet the problems would take years/decades to make a meaningful impact. Thoughts I have? Maybe instead of giving corporations a massive tax break in which 80% only bought back stocks (good for me bad for those who need it more), build a plant in a high poverty area, hire/train a % of local residents, in exchange for tax breaks. We know that health issues, physical and mental will impact parenting, working, etc...and yet politicians are talking about taking health care always from millions, who are most in need. Getting teachers to work in high poverty areas is incredibly difficult, pay those teachers to work in these areas. When I started teaching 35 years ago, I was able to have much of my student loans deferred or canceled by teaching in high poverty districts. Seattle is experimenting with a program to help families move out of public housing. Critics of the poor often think these families want to live where they have to, that they don’t want change. Seattle’s program is finding that is not true. I will try to find the link and include. Criminal justice reform has to be a part of the solution, without going into details, the criminal justice system is not a fair and equal system to all. So, there are a few ideas...
    I respectfully disagree with some of the basic assumptions in your argument. I don't believe that poverty is the root cause of the other symptoms you listed. I believe that poverty is an additional symptom alongside them. The root cause of all of them is (in my opinion) poor decision making and irresponsible behavior.
    Culture and values are what prevents people from living in poverty, from becoming criminals, from devaluing education, from having children they can't afford, from having children out of wedlock, from being abusive or neglectful parents, from becoming addicted to drugs or alcohol, etc. Culture and values are passed from generation to generation. Children learn behavioral patterns from parents.

    There are no easy solutions to these problems. As a society, we have encouraged, subsidized and/or incentivized the breakdown of the family unit. In an effort to "help" the poor, we have created generations of people who live in cultural deserts of dependency and crime. We have generations of young people being raised by one parent (or grandparent) who were never taught work ethic, self-respect, delayed gratification, self-sufficiency, or any of the numerous other values we were taught by our parents and that have made us productive members of society. Can some of them be saved by better teachers? Possibly. Are some of them waiting for some job training and an opportunity to work? Maybe a few. I suspect that those who are willing to work themselves out of poverty will do so with or without the help of government programs or corporate bail-outs.

    What I rarely hear from those who claim to be most concerned about the poor is that there is a formula to avoid poverty. 1. Graduate high school. 2. Don't develop an addiction to drugs or alcohol. 3. Get a job, do what you're supposed to do and show up when you are supposed to. 4. Get married before you have children. 5. Have no more children than you can afford.

    It's really that simple. But it isn't simple if every influence in your life is telling and/or showing you a different path.

    As far as poverty being the biggest problem we face, i just don't see it. The poverty level has bounced between 10% and 15% for the last 50 years or so, regardless of the economy and regardless of spending on social programs. Unfortunately, some people are just destined to be poor. You can give them money, you can give them training, you can try to give them a job. But at the end of the day, they are going to choose poverty. One man's opinion.
    Matt McKenzie

    "Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it." Henry Ford

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    Senior Member sick lids's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegillam View Post
    I found this to be a pretty insightful article on crime and poverty. I have not fact checked the stats. I do believe that poverty is the single biggest issue we face as a country. Poverty, rural and urban, black and white, has a detrimental effect on education, earnings, violence, and crime. https://vittana.org/26-poverty-and-crime-statistics
    You might be interested in this book. https://www.amazon.com/Bell-Curve-In.../dp/0684824299

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegillam View Post
    I agree that poverty does not cause crime. Crime is a symptom/effect of poverty, as is lower levels of educational attainment, poorer health, living in poor environmental areas, less access to healthy foods, etc...poverty and education could be interchanged. Like all large social ills, there is no one answer, and finding answers to meet the problems would take years/decades to make a meaningful impact. Thoughts I have? Maybe instead of giving corporations a massive tax break in which 80% only bought back stocks (good for me bad for those who need it more), build a plant in a high poverty area, hire/train a % of local residents, in exchange for tax breaks. We know that health issues, physical and mental will impact parenting, working, etc...and yet politicians are talking about taking health care always from millions, who are most in need. Getting teachers to work in high poverty areas is incredibly difficult, pay those teachers to work in these areas. When I started teaching 35 years ago, I was able to have much of my student loans deferred or canceled by teaching in high poverty districts. Seattle is experimenting with a program to help families move out of public housing. Critics of the poor often think these families want to live where they have to, that they don’t want change. Seattle’s program is finding that is not true. I will try to find the link and include. Criminal justice reform has to be a part of the solution, without going into details, the criminal justice system is not a fair and equal system to all. So, there are a few ideas...
    Mike, you are about 60 years behind when you suggest these things. Each and every thing you suggeast are government mandated policies that have been tried.

    One you did leave out, is reducing the student-teacher ratio. Tennessee bought into this and with State Senate Majority Leader, Andy Womack actively supporting it, the state initiated a program to significantly reduce the number of students in a class. Andy is a friend that was a Democrat and described himself as a fiscal conservative and a social moderate(how many time have we heard this?). Andy is a good man, sincere and honest. I even contributed to his campaign when he ran for Govenor, thinking that if there were to be a democrat as Govenor, none could be better. After decades of gradually reducing the number of students per class and billions of dollars that will continue to be spent, studies show that the effect of eduction improvement has been ZERO!!

    Mempis and Shelby County Tennessee has the 2nd highest paid teachers in the state and have about the worst and most corrupt school system in the state, with numerous incidents of finantial fraud and teacher sexual abuse of students. About 6 years ago, there was a report stating that the Administration employees had an average salary of about $180,000. When I read their job descriptions, I had little idea as to what they did.

    Everything that you have suggested and has been done, does nothing but ELIMINATE any competion and insure that there will be little real innovation and experimentation in the education system. Take Common Core for example. Its implemantation means that there will be little chance that there will be any attempt at trying different ideas.

    I live in one of the 100 poorest counties of the United States, so I see it every day. It has high unemployment, high workman's compensation and very high disability claims. With those negative factors, do you really expect lbusinesses to come into the area?? Many will only take part time jobs that pay cash so as not to lose their food stamps, section 8 housing, free public transportation, health care and other government payments. The very things the liberals propose entraps them in this never ending situation of dependence and control by the government.
    Last edited by caryalsobrook; 08-10-2019 at 09:04 PM.

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    Isn't it amazing how many "impoverished" people have smartphones and tattoos?
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