Do Lab Breeders Sort of Accept Cruciate Tears as Normal?
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Thread: Do Lab Breeders Sort of Accept Cruciate Tears as Normal?

  1. #1
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    Default Do Lab Breeders Sort of Accept Cruciate Tears as Normal?

    Ted Shih's post about dog health insurance was excellent. Thank you Ted!

    But do Labrador breeders sort of accept CCL tears as expected/normal now days? The reason I ask is because I would like to know how you deal with cruciate tears in your puppy health guarantees. Do you give any health guarantee regarding cruciate tears or is this impossible to do so?

    PLEASE don't go all whacky on me for asking the question. I am just trying to ascertain what breeders of your breed generally do for a certain health issue. My breed has a health issue which is impossible, at this point, to test for or predict. I am just trying to understand how breeders of the most popular breed in the world deal with health issues impossible to test for or predict.

    Thanks.

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    I do not accept cruciate tears as normal. In the trial dogs we have had, we have never had a cruciate issue with our dogs nor have I ever heard of any of the offspring having that issue.
    We avoid breeding to large Labradors for number of reasons and as unscientific as it sounds "size matters".
    Daniel Shnitka

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    Senior Member jacduck's Avatar
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    U of WI, Madison vet school is conducting a study on this subject involving questionaire, exam and dna sample to try to find an answer. Part of my emails with them "Thank you so much for reaching out and for your interest in our work. We are a genetics laboratory that is interested in orthopedic diseases and are based out of the Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine.

    We have been studying cruciate rupture in purebred Labradors for over 7 years. We would be extremely excited about including your dog in our work!
    I have to admit I am unfamiliar with many champion and AKC terminology, and I'm not sure what CLF stands for.

    We are specifically looking for purebred Labrador Retrievers who are affected with ACL rupture (any age) or purebred Labrador Retrievers who are not affected with ACL rupture (who are over 8 years old)."

    Contact [email protected] if interested in adding to the study.
    John Cottenham aka jacduck in many circles before the internet


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    Senior Member ErinsEdge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironwood View Post
    I do not accept cruciate tears as normal. In the trial dogs we have had, we have never had a cruciate issue with our dogs nor have I ever heard of any of the offspring having that issue.
    We avoid breeding to large Labradors for number of reasons and as unscientific as it sounds "size matters".
    I agree with size matters pretty much for me also. I had one litter long time ago that was bigger (95# +) hard going males, and there were multiple cruciate tears but the smaller one (75#) hunted a long time with none. Simplistic but I stay in the breed standard for weight, and I look at rear angulation of the parents. There are lines that seem to have more cruciate tears, and do not ask me for them because it is by casual observation. I cover my trial running dogs with pet insurance JIC and hope for good luck. I tell puppy buyers there is a need for pet insurance, especially if they compete or hunt, but I do not guarantee a process which is still being studied for cause.
    Nancy P



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    Senior Member roseberry's Avatar
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    If your dog is common, you do not accept it or breed it.
    If your dog is exceptional,.................
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    Senior Member ErinsEdge's Avatar
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    Maybe we should ask if a dog is exceptional, how many people ignore the possibility of a higher risk of cruciate repairs or even ask about histories?
    Nancy P



    "We give dogs time we can spare, space we can spare and love we can spare. And in return, dogs give us their all. It's the best deal man has ever made." M.Facklam

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    No one ever asks in my experience. In my 6 generations of breeding dog, I have had one pup that had crucial rupture. That was the second litter of my first female. She has 3 litters total. In my handling of puppy buyers I have never had one of them ask about cruciates, allergies, dental bite correctness, etc. I am very happy that we had not had any problems with any of those. But buyers do not ask and don’t seem to care about it, or even realize they should ask. They just want to know if dad was “the popular stud” of the time. Performance traits are extremely important to those of us looking for “the” dog. But health needs to be too. How many pups end up in hunting homes or even hunt test homes but their primary mission in life is as a pet. Not having to live a life of scratching or constantly medicated for that should be a high priority but again. No one asks.
    Nate Baxter, DVM
    Clarksville, OH

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    Senior Member Billie's Avatar
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    No its not 'normal' or accepted as such. However I do not cover it in a guarantee....Still an injury.
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    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    I have gone through 6 cruciate surgeries with my dogs. I always look at the cruciate history of the sire, dam, and their predecessors. If you ever have had to rehab a cruciate, knowing that you would likely have to rehab another cruciate, it would be a huge deal to you, too.
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    Senior Member suepuff's Avatar
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    I do not look at it as normal. In my experience, size and fitness does not seem to matter. In fact, several of our dogs have participated in studies at VOSM in Maryland to evaluate force plate analysis of gate and measure angles of fronts, rears etc. I have athletic show dogs. According to structure, we should not have tears. We will be participating in the Wisconsin study. I have several litters that will be enrolled.

    I am with Nate. Even though I sell to performance homes, 99% of these dogs are still pets. I don’t tolerate things like allergies. You know what? It still pops up. I track it. What can we do about it? Be diligent. I ask a ton of questions of stud dog owners. I go see the dog. I look at their offspring. But guess what? A lot of people omit things (lie) or don’t know because their dogs live in kennels or they don’t keep up with what offspring do.

    My guarantee is that I’ve done my due diligence. I have refunded puppy price. I am always there for support and have helped owners through the diagnostic process and help them find solutions.

    People expect us to breed perfect dogs. I am disappointed myself when things pop up. But in realty? One breeding of a male and female and there are a LEAST a quintillion combinations of genes that pop up. So we can have no cruciates or allergies in one litter and with the same EXACT pairing next time have the whole litter affected. Production agricultural has a way to dal with it. We, as dog breeders, other than a few genetic tests, can only rely on phenotype, which is low reliability.

    So do I worry? Yes. But I’ve come to the conclusion this year that I’m doing everything I can. And that I’d much rather deal with ACL tears then TVD or Hemangiosarcoma. At least we can fix tears. It sucks. But it’s one of the main reasons many ‘breeders’ don’t make it longer than 5 years. It’s a heartbreaking hobby.

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