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Thread: A different hold problem

  1. #41
    Senior Member DarrinGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan View Post
    Really?
    Recipe for disaster
    Really? Done it at least a dozen times successfully.
    Darrin Greene

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  3. #42
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    Really? Done it at least a dozen times successfully.
    Darren
    I do it with 75 percent of the dogs . Skipping hold and going to straight ff is a very easy concept to understand if one has enough experience with modifying behavior,. especially if they have done many both ways,, then they can see no difference either way. Some need to learn 'hold" at least while they are sitting still to make the connection a little cleaner, but most don't,, People can do and think as they please. And people who don't know any better will argue about it. There is no difference in ""I better not drop " or" I better hold",except "I better not drop" is way easier to enforce especially at a hundred yards

    Pete
    Last edited by Pete; 11-18-2019 at 09:58 PM.
    The eye can not see what the mind does not know

  4. #43
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    [QUOTE][/QI wonderif you have a dog, that naturally loves to hold things,and carry them around, is perfectly comfortable holding something when sitting,, would be the HARDEST dog to Force fetch..? How would you know the step ( Understanding FORCE, and how to deal with it) was completeUOTE]

    The good thinking comment but why? I made,,, was referring a dog that has a really good natural hold and can often be more difficult to FF. May be that's why they don't use it much in England. The British dogs I have trained have all had a natural "hold" except the one I am working with now from a well known Brit kennel. He is bucking bronco when you try to put anything in his mouth.
    Pete
    The eye can not see what the mind does not know

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  6. #44
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Pete;2183954]
    [/QI wonderif you have a dog, that naturally loves to hold things,and carry them around, is perfectly comfortable holding something when sitting,, would be the HARDEST dog to Force fetch..? How would you know the step ( Understanding FORCE, and how to deal with it) was completeUOTE]

    The good thinking comment but why? I made,,, was referring a dog that has a really good natural hold and can often be more difficult to FF. May be that's why they don't use it much in England. The British dogs I have trained have all had a natural "hold" except the one I am working with now from a well known Brit kennel. He is bucking bronco when you try to put anything in his mouth.
    Pete

    Got It!
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 11-18-2019 at 10:38 PM.
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  7. #45
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    I had a follow up thought. If you follow Hillman, it is about repeating success. An amateur has more time for more repetitions. A lack of success would be a sign you aren’t doing something right? Too much success is a good sign.

    In reading the posts concerned about never having the opportunity to get in corrections, that may be worth pondering. I personally believe in the more repetition of success thing and letting them do it the right way in the beginning if not always, but ....

    A dog that doesn’t always do the right thing can end up with a better tool kit? Maybe that is the question being asked and what to do about it?

    I read the problem as the dog spitting out the bumper when asked to sit. That seems to me like an issue of stopping the game and it falls apart.

    Isn’t the answer to that to switch tactics .... but have a foundation for it? I don’t think the answer is to throw away a foundational core principle.

    I would like to self congratulate myself on post. I out did myself once again. Please leave comments in the comment section, ha, ha.

  8. #46
    Senior Member Leddyman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post

    The OP’s dog, IMHO sounds like it knows hold very well.. The dog holds when commanded, he will walk at heel and hold.. The dog just drops bumper when told to sit.. The dog has a good understanding of hold, though not perfect… Time to move on…. Pick your battle..

    The main focus of FORCE FETCH though, isn’t mouth habits.. Its conditioning the dog to understand Force (pressure) and how to deal with it (compliance). You must condition the dog thoroughly with this step, before you move on ,if you are following a force based program..

    Right Gooser. BTW We got through our little issue with hold and are working on the third day of ear pinch. We simplified, helped her hold it and she got it eventually.

    If the OP's dog will hold and heel I'd move on to FF and clean up the sit issue with an ear pinch after it understood the correction.
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  9. #47
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    Remember to keep the big picture in mind. FF has less to do with a perfect hold and fetch, as it does of introducing the dog to pressure, how to handle it and get out of it. The fetch and carry are side effects, learning the meaning and understanding of pressure is the big picture.
    Nate Baxter, DVM
    Clarksville, OH

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