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Thread: Automatic HT Fail: Dog touches me when returning to heel?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    Don't forget the Rule prohibiting "threatening gestures."

    The reality is that most judges are going to say or do something unfavorable to you if you touch the dog while you are on the line.

    Ted
    Why if the handler is not violating any rules in the rulebook?

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  3. #42
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Verbyla View Post
    Why if the handler is not violating any rules in the rulebook?

    There are many judges who view any touching of the dog once you leave the holding blind (before you run) and once you leave the line after you run (but before you are behind the judges) as grounds for elimination. If pressed, they will likely cite "intimidation" (which does not exist in the Rule Book), and if they dig into the Rule Book, call it a "threatening gesture."

    I am not saying I agree. I am saying it is so. If you or others want to be Don Quixote and tilt at windmills, be my guest. As for me, I would pick another fight. It's not that big a deal to suspend touching your dog for the five to ten minutes that you are on line.

    Ted
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  4. #43
    Senior Member drunkenpoacher's Avatar
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    My dog and all that I train with would probably be confused and distracted if touched by the handler at the line.
    Anyway the original question was about the dog bumping the handler when coming to heel which is not against the rules. Some heel very tight to the handler and are always brushing against their leg.
    There are a lot of ways an ignorant or dishonest judge could eliminate a dog from a test or trial. Fortunately judges like that are rare.
    "I'm thankful someone stood up to him, even if it was a woman." Franco 10/18/19

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  6. #44
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post

    There are many judges who view any touching of the dog once you leave the holding blind (before you run) and once you leave the line after you run (but before you are behind the judges) as grounds for elimination. If pressed, they will likely cite "intimidation" (which does not exist in the Rule Book), and if they dig into the Rule Book, call it a "threatening gesture."

    I am not saying I agree. I am saying it is so. If you or others want to be Don Quixote and tilt at windmills, be my guest. As for me, I would pick another fight. It's not that big a deal to suspend touching your dog for the five to ten minutes that you are on line.

    Ted
    At the end of the last series of a Master test we ran, the judge stepped up behind me with his book, and wanted to show me how they judged an action I questioned them about in an earlier series,... The judge opened his book, and we were talking.. My dog, had retrieved the last bird, delivered to hand,,and was sitting at my side as we talked... the conversation lasted a bit.. When we were done, I lost focus,,and reached down, and leashed my dog to leave the line.. The judged stopped me and said,, "don't ask us to drop you NOW!!" Your dog ,has to be under control off leas, until you are well behind us! Unleash her,,and we will let it slip today, because we distracted you! It was her Title run..
    They gave me a break! They could have applied the rule (Unwritten?).. For sure! I made a mistake.. No excuse... It is widley understood, you do NOT touch your dog until you are finished with your run, and are well behind the line..
    Last edited by MooseGooser; 12-30-2019 at 10:05 AM.
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
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  7. #45
    Senior Member T-Pines's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MooseGooser View Post
    At the end of the last series of a Master test we ran, the judge stepped up behind me with his book, and wanted to show me how they judged an action I questioned them about in an earlier series,... The judge opened his book, and we were talking.. My dog, had retrieved the last bird, delivered to hand,,and was sitting at my side as we talked... the conversation lasted a bit.. When we were done, I lost focus,,and reached down, and leashed my dog to leave the line.. The judged stopped me and said,, "don't ask us to drop you NOW!!" Your dog ,has to be under control off leas, until you are well behind us! Unleash her,,and we will let it slip today, because we distracted you! It was her Title run..
    They gave me a break! They could have applied the rule (Unwritten?).. For sure! I made a mistake.. No excuse... It is widley understood, you do NOT touch your dog until you are finished with your run, and are well behind the line..
    I hate to beat the sacred, mythical horse of no touch ... but the judge gave you a break on a written rule, which has nothing to do with any unwritten rules about touching your dog.

    Leashes and collars shall be used as follows: In Senior
    and Master Tests, dogs shall be brought to the line and
    taken from the line off-lead and without collars. Collars
    and leashes may be put on the dogs after they leave the
    line and are in back of all the Judges. Dogs shall be con-
    sidered under judgment from the time that they are called
    to come to the line until they have left the line and are in
    back of all judges.
    And

    Serious Handler Faults: Serious faults listed cover
    all those instances where the Standard describes conduct of
    the handler which in and of itself justifies elimination from
    the stake.
    .
    .
    .
    7. Pulling out leash in front of Judges – (Master and
    Senior levels).
    .
    .
    .

  8. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by drunkenpoacher View Post
    Going by this rule alone, after the number is called you can touch your dog.
    wrong again drunkenpoacher.
    First, you can't look at that rule in isolation of the rest of the rulebook

    I presume by your flawed logic that once the judge give your number if your dog were to go over and lift his leg on the judge or start a fight with the honordog that that would be okay too; as it's not prohibited in the specific language of that rule.
    Wrong!

    Second, Can you show me anywhere in the specific language of that rule where it says it's okay to touch your dog after the number is given by the judge?

    No you can't, because it doesn't say that.

    I believe you'll find as you gain more experience that in the vast majority of cases that if you feel it necessary to touch your dog after you're given your number that the judge is going to look and judge you negatively based upon your perceived need to touch the dog

  9. #47
    Senior Member MooseGooser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Pines View Post
    I hate to beat the sacred, mythical horse of no touch ... but the judge gave you a break on a written rule, which has nothing to do with any unwritten rules about touching your dog.



    And

    YES! Correct!! I did a LOT wrong! I exposed the leash!,,I touched her before I leashed,,, then I leashed her.... the judges gave me a HUGE break..

    Well aware of the rule of unleashing before coming to the line,, and leashing after you are well behind judges.. Same requirement in Senior..
    It is far easier to spit on the work of others than it is to produce something better yourself.
    Brynmoors Prairie Sage JH ​(Sage) Just a dang fool huntin Dawg
    HRCH Calypso Seven Bales High SH (Bailey)
    HR Calypso Zoomin Loosies Mad Hader (Maddi) We loved you baby. R.I.P.
    HRCH FlatLanders Broken Pistol Ricochet MH (Flinch)


    My Christian Name is Michael Baker..
    I have gone by "Gooser" since I was a "gossling"

  10. #48
    Senior Member drunkenpoacher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerfan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by drunkenpoacher View Post
    Going by this rule alone, after the number is called you can touch your dog.
    wrong again drunkenpoacher.
    First, you can't look at that rule in isolation of the rest of the rulebook

    I presume by your flawed logic that once the judge give your number if your dog were to go over and lift his leg on the judge or start a fight with the honordog that that would be okay too; as it's not prohibited in the specific language of that rule.
    Wrong!

    Second, Can you show me anywhere in the specific language of that rule where it says it's okay to touch your dog after the number is given by the judge?

    No you can't, because it doesn't say that. It doesn't say I can grill a rib-eye for dinner tonight either but I'm going to, might even grill two and have one for desert.

    I believe you'll find as you gain more experience that in the vast majority of cases that if you feel it necessary to touch your dog after you're given your number that the judge is going to look and judge you negatively based upon your perceived need to touch the dog
    I thought I had posted a very simple statement that anyone could understand. It was until you prove me “wrong again”. Maybe you can find somebody to read and explain the whole thread to you.
    Anyway, how was Christmas Tigerscat? Please relay my sympathy to anyone that had to spend it with you.
    Last edited by drunkenpoacher; 12-30-2019 at 05:34 PM.
    "I'm thankful someone stood up to him, even if it was a woman." Franco 10/18/19

  11. #49
    Senior Member Ted Shih's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drunkenpoacher View Post
    Going by this rule alone, after the number is called you can touch your dog.
    However, a handler and his/her dog are evaluated by the entire Rule Book, not just one Rule
    Competition does not build character - It reveals it.

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  12. #50
    Senior Member drunkenpoacher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Shih View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by drunkenpoacher View Post
    Going by this rule alone, after the number is called you can touch your dog.
    However, a handler and his/her dog are evaluated by the entire Rule Book, not just one Rule
    Of course they are. All the rules of a civilized society also apply.
    "I'm thankful someone stood up to him, even if it was a woman." Franco 10/18/19

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