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Gunners Guild

21K views 78 replies 37 participants last post by  moscowitz 
#1 ·
I think it may be time for them to bring in some new, young blood (under the age of say 60) and retire some of the relics (god bless them for their years of service).

Also, maybe it is time to reduce their influence at the National events.

After all, it is suppose to be about the dogs, right?
 
#42 ·
"Raise entry fees by $50". . . . NRC and NARC have 100-120 entries now?? So round it to $5,000 to hire a gunner??
8 Days of throwing for a National $200/day x 8 days = $1,600
8 nights in a hotel $150/night = $1,200.

$3,800 and you haven't figured in travel or food expense. . . . Haven't even covered one flyer station . . .

Ed wasn't kidding when he said you've have to double or triple the entry fee if you want to hire help.
 
#74 ·
Certainly, if it means getting people to give honest, open reflection for positive change, then most definitely. And if that means ruffling the feathers of a few people then so be it. The National events are suppose to be our premier events, as stewards of the game it is up to ALL of us to do what is in the best interest of the event/game to make it so. You will never have positive change without having discussions of the negatives.

For those few people that are wondering, not that it is all that important IMO, I have worked the 2 National events that have been in my area, I do own 2 National finalists both of which are Field Champions. Also I have volunteered at a US Open on 2 occasions as well as a PGA Championship. Volunteering, when possible, is something that we should all do to give back.
 
#47 ·
Exactly.. Doesn’t matter what my personal history is, this is right. So sorry to see team s that made it so far suffer from multiple no-birds. Why does that make me so bad?
(this was in reply to Casey Adams post).
 
#49 ·
No amount of posting on this or any other forum will change long established policy at any level. With basic rules an organized presentation of a rule change is submitted in writing to the Subcommittee on Rules to the Retriever Advisory Committee for consideration but things such as field trial mechanics are generally not part of Field Trial Rules and Standard Procedures for Retrievers.

A well organized and strongly supported petition to both National Clubs (who act independently) to affect a change in the way live birds are thrown and shot and presented at the Annual Meeting of both the NRC and the NARC would at least begin the discussion in a useful and meaningful way.

In the past when this issue has arisen I have envisioned the possibility of hiring an appropriate number of professional live bird throwers and shooters to shoot all live birds at Nationals. This would make for long days for those people and it would be necessary to pay them well for 10 +/- days but would provide for more consistentcy especially avoiding shift changes in the guns.

Anyone who considers this to be a sufficiently serious problem potentially affecting the outcome of the National Championship Stakes should form a committee of interested and experienced people to explore a solution(s) to no bird fliers and proceed with a campaign to lobby and seek support within the clubs who are members of the NRC and the NARC. Then present findings again and again because it is unlikely that change would happen on the first try (if ever.)

Since 1984 when the National Championship Stake is held in the West Central Time Zone every four years I have served as Committee Chairman, Chief Marshal or co-Chief Marshal, or Field Trial Chairman six times. I have competed in both National Championship Stakes in all four time zones, and judged the 2018 NRC. I am not of the opinion that a drastic change of this magnitude is warranted or needed but as the wiseman said, opinions are like “a” holes, everyone has one and I have no shortage of opinions 😉!
 
#50 ·
Ed I understand what you are saying but if the conversation does not start nothing will happen so it appears this forum is as good as any to start the conversation. I also get where you are coming from, but what I find interesting in your post is you state "in the past when this issue has arisen" this tells me this is not the first time this issue has been talked about, as we both already know, the question remains why if an issue continues do we not try something new to better the sport? Continuing down a path just because that's the way it's always been done leads to nothing improving. If we all trained the same way they did in the 1960's, 80s or even ten years ago these dogs would not be as advanced as they are so why don't we update the process and rules just the same as we evolve the sport in other ways?

I greatly appreciate your opinion on this however we differ our thoughts on it. I know that this issue has been raised with one national committee to the gunners guild itself asking what we can do to cut down on the no birds at the flyer stations, that shows us it is an issue a lot of people recognize. I think the tradition of the Guild is great and want to see it for years to come, so as Mark posted above if they think more consistent bird throwers would help the issue let's try that one factor and see the results then move on from there. Everyone also talks about cost, just think if the no birds were cut to a 1/3 of what they have been averaging what the cost savings is right there in just birds. It may turn out that this is something that will never get addressed and will continue to only be talked about in the shadows, but my opinion is if there is a way to better the sport in regards to fairness to the dogs we owe it to them to try.
 
#52 ·
but what I find interesting in your post is you state "in the past when this issue has arisen" this tells me this is not the first time this issue has been talked about
as at almost every National in the last 30 years....😉

I take no issue, it is a worthy discussion which is obviously not new. I can add, from personal experience, that the shooters and throwers are not the only things that contribute to no birds. Too few judges use pheasants in training or at their home field trial and they have a tendency to try to make them a controlled fall which is impossible. There are some basics that are fundamental to avoiding no birds with pheasants. Never throw them at a tree line or a hillside, never into the wind or in a strong crosswind. The area of the fall should be large with more or less uniform cover. To violate any of these things invites a higher than acceptable percentage of no birds. There will always be the uncontrollable factors of lighting and wind changes but at least control what you can control. I also believe that the required use of non toxic shot (steel particularly) contributes to higher than normal numbers of no birds. If you recall last year in Series 8 we had a single hen pheasant flier and a duck flier. The hen was shot out of the test to what we considered a very large area, we put three guns at the station, and we still had 9 no birds which almost cost us enough time to prevent finishing the 9th series that day.

If I left the impression that I am anti change nothing could be further from the truth. When I was an officer of the NRC we instituted random draw for the starting number and added one day going from 5 to 6 days for the National.

I am all in for anything that makes mechanics and fairness better but I also understand how hard it is to swing the pendulum.
 
#53 ·
I would like to chip in a few more observations. Again, I will speak of the 10th series as that was the topic thread, but can apply to others. I was the co-chair for the throwers committee this year (ducking rotten tomatoes). I can tell you we picked the most experienced throwers we had for the 10th. Two of the throwers were professional trainers and two others were amateurs that had thrown a lot of both ducks and pheasants. I truly believe if you had hired throwers you could not have done better with the help. At the start of the series we were given instructions to make the 1st bird (rooster pheasant) a "big booming" throw. We put our biggest arm on that station. I assume the gunners were likewise asked to ride that bird as long as possible, since this was a skyline flyer. They did their job well as most the falls were very long from the gun. From my vantage point, I could mark the falls with a fixed reference point. Some dogs (3-5) got VERY long falls (>60 yards) and smaller number got some very short falls (~30 yards). I can tell you the length of the dog's hunt was directly proportional to the distance the bird fell from the gun. I know you know it Casey, but Deacon got one of those very long falls. Most of the no birds were on the left hand flyer. This bird violated several of Dr Ed's suggestions above. The bird was a hen pheasant thrown directly into a hill and there was a crosswind to it's flight path. The birds were hooking with the wind like deamons. One other thing, as Casey mentioned, throwers were hired for the 2015 NRC in Corning. My memory of that trial was the no bird problem was just as bad. I know one judge was really frustrated and they basically quit calling no birds on flyers if the bird was killed. Honest, I got my number called on a pheasant that went 180 degrees from where the mark was intended. It was the go bird and since my dog marked it well (she loves flyers), it was no problem. I have thrown at Nationals before and as Casey mentioned, with a thrown dead bird, the judges usually demand pretty precise falls, where they generally accept a much bigger area for a flyer to fall in

Anyway, no answers, just observations, but I am leaning to reducing the number of flyers at the National as a partial solution to making marks as fair as possible to the dogs.
 
#55 ·
I would like to chip in a few more observations. Again, I will speak of the 10th series as that was the topic thread, but can apply to others. I was the co-chair for the throwers committee this year (ducking rotten tomatoes). I can tell you we picked the most experienced throwers we had for the 10th. Two of the throwers were professional trainers and two others were amateurs that had thrown a lot of both ducks and pheasants. I truly believe if you had hired throwers you could not have done better with the help. At the start of the series we were given instructions to make the 1st bird (rooster pheasant) a "big booming" throw. We put our biggest arm on that station. I assume the gunners were likewise asked to ride that bird as long as possible, since this was a skyline flyer. They did their job well as most the falls were very long from the gun. From my vantage point, I could mark the falls with a fixed reference point. Some dogs (3-5) got VERY long falls (>60 yards) and smaller number got some very short falls (~30 yards). I can tell you the length of the dog's hunt was directly proportional to the distance the bird fell from the gun. I know you know it Casey, but Deacon got one of those very long falls. Most of the no birds were on the left hand flyer. This bird violated several of Dr Ed's suggestions above. The bird was a hen pheasant thrown directly into a hill and there was a crosswind to it's flight path. The birds were hooking with the wind like deamons. One other thing, as Casey mentioned, throwers were hired for the 2015 NRC in Corning. My memory of that trial was the no bird problem was just as bad. I know one judge was really frustrated and they basically quit calling no birds on flyers if the bird was killed. Honest, I got my number called on a pheasant that went 180 degrees from where the mark was intended. It was the go bird and since my dog marked it well (she loves flyers), it was no problem. I have thrown at Nationals before and as Casey mentioned, with a thrown dead bird, the judges usually demand pretty precise falls, where they generally accept a much bigger area for a flyer to fall in

Anyway, no answers, just observations, but I am leaning to reducing the number of flyers at the National as a partial solution to making marks as fair as possible to the dogs.
Thank you Wetdog for this enlightening post as to the reality behind the scenes. It certainly is a stressful volunteer job, trying to get it right with each bird, much less multiples.
 
#54 ·
David,
I appreciate your thoughts and there are some good ones in there. I want to make one thing clear so no one gets offended all of my comments are in regards to the overall issue not one specific series. I am not posting because of the tenth at one national, it is something that has been discussed at every national I have ran and I am basing it off of that. To isolate one series only could be shaken out as just a bad day we all have had them. Instead of focusing on one series let's focus on the overall, like Ed said it has been an issue for 30 years.

In your post I think you do point to a key factor the let it ride out and throw the hell out of it mentality, while it looks good from the crowd and those behind you, is it fair to the dog is the question? Thats all I am getting at. To be honest Dave 90% of the conversations this year I had on this topic were at the 5th series. What is extremely hard for a dog in my opinion is to have a short flyer at the long gun (take the 5th for example) as the first bird down, then get a no bird on a dead bird station. Come right back get a boomer flyer at a big distance round 2 have the rest go down, then watch the dog hunt the first flyer and the old scent. If the flyer was more controlled this dog still has a chance to dig it out, but if its 30-40 more yards away not very many recover. One pro I spoke too had a great idea, he said have them use a log or brush just as they do to mark the end of the blind that is clearly visible from the line, anything past that is a no bird. I think that is a solid idea. Please don't make it about one series as the tenth series was a nice test.
 
#57 ·
Not a fan of winger thrown flyers(especially at long distances). The bird comes out of the winger much faster than a human throw. With a flyer, the guns aren't shooting until well over 1/2 the arc. Makes it much more difficult to really mark the bird, IMO. End up with a lot of dogs that flash mark or just catch a small portion of the arc, or worse not see the bird at all. This is compounded when setups are really tight and you can't tell really which station the dog is looking at. I don't like doing anything that limits a dog's ability to see the full arc of the bird.
 
#59 ·
This is a marketing and branding problem.

If it's called a "guild", it's gotta be too damn old!

Crew, gang, posse, circle........whatever.

A "shooting guild" creates a perception of Monty Python, Holy Grail, knights shooting on, never giving up, as they age! ;)
 
#62 ·
I remember a big Facebook kerfuffle after the NARC last year on no-birds. It seems people are the most adamant about things they weren't there to see for themselves.

I would imagine that the dogs have gotten so good that these technical tests are required to separate a National Champion from the finalists. The precise placement of birds is required to get the desired effects of suction, memory, marking ability etc. If a bird doesn't fall in such a manner that it creates the desired effect, it may make the test that much harder for a dog. Or unfairly easy for a dog creating a disparity in what the other dogs were shown. A lot to consider for judges for sure.

Having to ride a flyer that long has to be stomach turning for shooters out there in a national. Usually a no-bird in a HT or weekend trial means the shooters whiffed or just tipped the bird. Big difference between that and not dropping a bird in a hula hoop at 50 yards.
 
#63 ·
Big difference between that and not dropping a bird in a hula hoop at 50 yards.
No sane judge would expect that much consistency from a live bird, particularly a pheasant. Variation in falls within a prescribed area is the random effect of live birds. Judges who demand that kind of consistency will be plagued with no birds and should never use a live bird. It should be noted that each individual dog, unless it has seen a no bird, has not seen the previous 50 fliers only his. Old fall effects are based on scent and may affect the hunt pattern but not where the dog has seen the bird fall. Indeed scent can help hold a dog’s hunt within the area of the fall so long fliers are not the problem, it is the ones that are drastically different that typically cause problems for the dog. Short falls close to the gun tend to be the worst as dogs are not accustomed to finding birds close to the gun and scent from the bird tends to get mixed in with the scent from the flier station. The second most difficult falls are straight back or hard back falls where old scent tends to keep the dog away from those areas unless of course the dog marked the bird. In general unless dogs get short or hard back falls right away they will tend to have an extended hunt. The location of the fall relative to the majority AOF should be noted and given due consideration when evaluating the mark. I am much more forgiving of extensive but sensible hunting on fliers (more so with pheasants than ducks) than extensive hunting on controlled dead birds.
 
#66 ·
Casey we can just double up the bird count and make sure everyone gets a no bird at every trial. Extra practice so getting a couple at the National is just another normal weekend
 
#70 ·
We all do things better as we age. Few of those require our best eyesight and athletic coordination.

Fight all you want, father time is undefeated. Don't worry, no one will ask your wife or pharmacist to compare 20 steve to 63 steve.
 
#78 ·
You either actually are a gunner or, you are an occasional shooter.... I was chairing a national breed trial once. I had limited help. I had 2 stakes running. I asked a gunners guild member if he could help me shoot to finish a stake. He said no, it was raining. I went and threw and shot by myself for the last series. It was my fault. I didnt arrange enough help for the specialty trial. I'm not complaining however, I have never once told anyone at a trial I could not help
🙂. Memory like an elephant I have....
 
#79 ·
Wish I knew that you needed help I would have volunteered. You put on a great National breed trial. Thank you for stepping up then.
 
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