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Gunners Guild

21K views 78 replies 37 participants last post by  moscowitz 
#1 ·
I think it may be time for them to bring in some new, young blood (under the age of say 60) and retire some of the relics (god bless them for their years of service).

Also, maybe it is time to reduce their influence at the National events.

After all, it is suppose to be about the dogs, right?
 
#2 ·
I belonged to a Retriever Club that did just that. 5 years later they were settling for
whoever they could find in the gallery. :(

I am not a gunner but when throwing at Nationals I've seen some pretty amazing
shooting from some that are no longer with us, up close & personal.
 
#3 ·
And how many Nationals have you:

Attended?
Worked?
Run?

The Gunners - some of whom do compete with dogs - make a tremendous sacrifice of time and money. They take a week, sometimes two weeks off to gun. They pay for their travel, lodging, and meals. They are there for setup week. During the week of competition, they are there from sun up to sun down.

As for influence, there are many different groups have a say in what happens at a National. I don't think that the Gunners have any more influence than any of those other groups.

I have found - both at a weekend trial and at a National - you ignore the comments of experienced Gunners at your own peril. I have participated in Nationals where the Judges ignored the Gunners' suggestions and paid the price. In the 3/4 series of the 2013, National, the Gunners made a request - which we thought made sense. We adopted it, and things went without a hitch.

In short, I disagree entirely with your inference

Ted

 
#4 ·
You haven't even divulged your real name, and yet you think you can dictate how things should be run and judge expertise by age, of the volunteers they pay their own way to gun to give back. Do you even run or is this just an armchair management?
 
#5 ·
I threw for 4 series last year in Paducah and had a great time talking with the gunners that shot the fliers I threw. It was clear that they were a dedicated group that all had sacrificed a great deal to be there for the entire event. I appreciate their effort and hope that one day I too will be able to spend that much time in set up and helping at a national.
 
#6 ·
While "new blood" is always encouraged and needed the sacrifices inherent to the position are what restrict many younger folks from doing it. There are few less than 45 year olds who can take 7-14 days off work and travel across the country to shoot for the pleasure of others. I've had the privilege to gun with a very experienced Guild member who is also a 8 pt AA judge and former National judge.

The work is thankless, the days are long, and new blood is always needed, but not at the expense of the experienced.
 
#7 ·
How many nationals one attends or has run or worked is completely irrelevant to good shooting. LOL That's a good one, absolutely love it.

I know what good wing shooting looks like. What I saw last Saturday, with pretty much zero wind to deal with, was a travesty. 38 Roosters for 18 running dogs and they couldn't finish the test.
When you can no longer catch up to a Rooster or Hen Pheasant it's time to remove yourself. No one will fault a person for admitting the time has come. Put the gun down and walk away with your pride intact. It is suppose to be about the dogs, correct?
 
#8 ·

I find it curious that frequently those who are most outspoken elect to remain anonymous. If you have not attended, worked or judged a National you have no factu basis for rendering opinions as to skill, competence or anything else. I am through with you. "Ignore" button to the rescue.
 
#9 ·
I guess with that response I hit the nail on the head.

Ignore to the rescue for sure.
 
#10 ·
I have never witnessed the shooting at a National. I have never worked a National.. I DO have really cool dreams of running a dog at a national.. I HAVE shot my fair share of flyers.. I have gunned at a few HT's..

I think many people who I have been around, only key in on their ability to kill the bird.. Most kill it way to quickly trying to prove they are a great wing shooter..

A flyer is supposed to fly,, NOT look to the dog, as a dead bird station... Its one thing to kill the bird quick, its quite another to ride it, and kill it so the bird has a chance to put on a production.... I think Judges like that, along with a few extra shots!.. :)

The rooster cackles as it's panicking to leave Dodge,, The Posey is fillin the air with lead! The culprit is luckly dispatched at the last possible minute..

Once in awhile,,Tom Horn shows up,,and can do all the above with one very amazing shot... Those types are few and far between..

We ALL think we are great shots,, until we are around the best.. :)

JMHO,,, Probably shoulda kept my mouth shut,, but I cant help myself.. :)
 
#11 ·
Did you not see what happened to Jeff Epstein? :razz:
 
#13 ·
How does the guild get it's members? They do receive an amazing amount of pampering. I like being pampered. I was doing grounds committee work one time filling in field ruts because parking committee had put nic-knack sellers in wrong field when a refrigerator truck from Maine pulls up asking for directions. Had the Gunners lobsters! Lobster's?? We grounds grunts had to bring a sandwich from home. And the rotation thing they do, in the same field that a month earlier a club member and I shot for a 60 dog event with hardly a break. All looking down on you with break actions priced higher than the truck I am driving. Yet when they get stuck because they park any place they like I am told I cannot giggle as I pull them out with the aforementioned truck. And those that know me know I enjoy a good giggle!
Maybe I'm just not guild worthy.
 
#14 ·
The Guns provide their own perks (lobsters ordered and paid for by one of them well known in the field trial world). At least one of them, who has been gunning for over 30 years, is a second generation National gun. There is a core of members many serving for multiple decades and typically new people with shooting skills will be invited when the National is in their time zone.. I have served in that capacity on several occasions but lack the available time and financial resources to attend two Nationals each year. On two occasions I served as Co Captain of the guns and as such never shot a single bird, instead organizing the teams and shift changes. It should be noted that shooting fliers is only a small part of what the guns do. Rain or shine every shot (poppers included) is supplied by a member or members (in the case of double pops) by the Official National Guns. It’s easy to be critical when there are no birds but foolish to forget how much work the official National guns do.
 
#16 ·
I have worked (volunteered) at multiple positions at both open and amateur Nationals. Just like the gunners, I have paid my own way to volunteer my services. With that said, here is what I have noticed regarding the gunners. There is a certain degree of separatism and arrogance displayed by some members of that group that you will not see in other committees. Also, I can honestly say, I see a far lower percentage of no birds on a weekend trial than I do at the Nationals. Just saying.
 
#17 ·
I have worked (volunteered) at multiple positions at both open and amateur Nationals. Just like the gunners, I have paid my own way to volunteer my services.
And without people like you Nationals could not exist in their current form. It is good to remember that those like you continue to help but few people work both Nationals every year, most of the Guns do. I have always volunteered when the National was in my area (but that is only the Open National every 4 years) or when my dog has been qualified.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Point well taken Dr Ed. I only truly volunteer for the Pacific time zone. I will work other time zones if my dog qualifies. My favorite job was towing the judge's porta potty to each new series. Not many people in the gallery get mad at you for poor performance!
 
#19 ·
I'd heard similar negative things about members of the Gunner's Guild. This year I worked both setup week and the entire NARC (the grounds guys do NOT get the kudus they deserve, btw). During setup week in particular, and less so during the event itself, I interfaced directly with the gunners. They were easy to work with, and I'd happily work with them again. I can't speak to the experience of others, and I have no doubt there have been negative interactions, but my experience was entirely pleasant. They definitely practice separatism, but that is driven at least in part by their job. There is a lot of internal coordination required as well as direct coordination with the chief marshal, grounds, and bird throwers to manage gun changes and station setup as part of a move between series. To a lesser degree you see the same thing with the marshals, bird stewards, traffic, and grounds crew - they all have to form an internally cohesive group to get their respective jobs done. The gunners may take it a degree farther than the other committees, but they are the same guys event after event, which has created greater group cohesion. The other committees are not made up of the same people event after event and have no opportunity to become such a tight unit.
 
#21 ·
The person throwing the flyers is just as, if not more, important than the shooters. Wind velocity and direction are also important factors in consistently dropping birds in a specific area.

Ive shot lots of flyers and seldom miss if the the other two variables are working well.
 
#23 ·
I did some more thinking and may not have given Dr Ed his due on another point he made. I compared what I observed as percentage of no birds on a weekend trial to those in a National. Really that is comparing apples to oranges. Weekend trials usually have one flyer per marking series in AA. Nationals commonly have 2 flyers, sometimes 3 flyers and I have heard of a rare series that has had 4 fliers. As Dr Ed pointed out, the more flyers you add the higher the likelihood of have a no bird. For my comparison I made I would have to compare the no birds in a series of the National to 2, 3 or 4 weekend trials cumulatively. The 10th this year at Corning was difficult because you had to have 3 good falls to give the dog his number. Using 38 roosters for 18 dogs doesn't reflect on that gun station because a no bird on one of the two other stations would cause the 1st gun to have to kill another bird to re-run the dog. Kenny Trott did have an unusual bit of bad luck though. Think his 6 no birds in the 10th must be a record for one dog. You know, Deke did a great job when he finally ran. He really kept his head through all those trips to the line!
 
#24 ·
On the weekends:
- You are typically talking about duck flyers
- You never (in my experience) shoot two flyers in the same test
- There are very few no-birds called (whether deserved or not)
- The judges are not insisting on 40-60 yard pheasant flyers

All of the above make shooting flyers at a National a different beast.

My hat's off to the Gunners' Guild

Ted
 
#25 ·
Kinda like my new thought, if you didn't serve and/or didn't vote then get outa my face. If you are a in the dark whistle blower it didn't happen.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I am assuming multiple fliers in a series are needed for whittling down the field?

Is the necessity of having the fliers go such great distances for the sake of retiring the gun? or getting the bird far enough away that the dog can't do the 'geometry'? Do trials ever use those big old 'tri pod' wingers that could throw dead birds the same distance?

Does having multiple fliers give pro trained dogs (top tier trainers) a bigger advantage? I would assume dogs on these trucks have the opportunity to spend more time training with multiple flier stations in the field than dogs who are amateur trained and/or see fewer multiple flier set up with a 'not so top tier' pro? Not trying to get into a 'fair' vs 'unfair' debate. Asking because I don't know if it matters or not. I would guess all the handler with qualified dogs who bothered to enter a national would have opportunity to train for multiple fliers during pre trial training?
 
#29 · (Edited)
I will take a shot at your questions, although others may have different thoughts.

1) multiple flyers do pose a more difficult test for some dogs. As you know, when it is time for the flyer some dogs creep, head swing, prance etc. Having more than one can make some dogs become unglued. Also it is partly for show for the gallery. Having multiple flyers can be an impressive show.
2) big, long throws can truly test a dog's ability to mark the bird. Many dogs get into the habit of marking off the gunners. They get used to a bird landing 20-25 yards on an angle back from the gun. Put a bird way out and the dog has to mark the bird, not the gun. I have seen wingers used in trials, but not often. A thrown dead bird is usually retired and taking down and putting up a winger for every dog would be a pain. Marks are not thrown in the manner of hunt tests where the winger and gunners are behind a holding blind. Gunners in a field trial are out and visible, so a winger would have to be out of the retiring blind also. The wingers I have seen used on dead birds are done if the gun is not retired. Also, at a National, most of the bird throwers have big arms and can huck a dead bird a good distance. We had some very strong bird throwers.
3) no advantage to a pro. Anyone can train for multiple flyers. Pros do not typically train with multiple flyers either. I would suspect the vast majority of dogs only see multiple flyers during the National and the week of pre-training prior to the National. Having pre-trained with top tier pros myself, I can tell you multiple flyers are not often used in pre-training either. Rather the mechanics of marking that will make a dog successful with multiple flyers are drilled. This means working on the dog marking one bird at a time, dead or a flyer. The basics of steadiness, preventing head swinging, line manners, etc.

Hope this helps.
 
#28 · (Edited)
So I gotta relay a couple humorous moments during the 10th series. I believe Deke had gotten his 4th no bird at this point. Danny Farmer walks into the gallery and one of Deke's owners exclaims to Danny that he had just gotten his 4th no bird. Danny replies matter of factly, "Well he ought to be good at them". I just about busted my gut laughing. Also when they were introducing the finalists after the conclusion of the 10th, when Kenny was introduced, the whole gallery started chanting, "No bird, no bird, no bird". So there were light moments even in the adversity of the no bird situation in the 10th.
 
#35 ·
It’s been an interesting read to a subject that’s a conundrum and a bit of a sticky wicket. Lots of no birds in the final series of a National perhaps increases luck into the equation where you might need or expect consistency to be of timely importance to those who have succeeded in being there to the last series and have a shot at the golden ring. Again it’s been an interesting read,
 
#38 ·
Not to hijack this thread, Ken's comment on consistency brings up another thought to me. It is said that the flyer in a trial or test is the most unfair bird because of the difficulty of getting consistent falls. It would seem to me, the more flyers in a series, the more possibility of not having a consistent test for each dog. I know personally, I have thought I would rather run in Canada where there are no flyers because I have been burned many times in trials by getting an unusual flyer that landed way out of the normal fall area or a missed flyer that the dog watched fly away. Would reducing the number of multiple flyers in a National make the series more consistent dog to dog as well as making the trial move faster because of the reduced likelihood of no birds? I know that is a judge's choice, but just saying.
 
#36 ·
I haven't shot for a national, but I regularly shoot for my club in the Open and Am and at hunt tests. I'm 56 and I don't expect I'll shoot worse in 4 years. What's your point? Also I'm all for young blood. Tell us where to find it. They need to be dedicated and reliable and take the pressure and not miss and humble when they do miss and able to get along with whoever they may be asked to shoot with and supervise bird boys that don't necessarily know anything and may be afraid of ducks and be quiet when the working dog is near and sit in the sun all day and don't miss and pay attention and don't miss. I'd love some relief.

P.S. We don't miss.
 
#40 ·
I have sat here long enough and read all the BS about the Gunners Guild and no birds. Ted and Ed have both judged Nationals and know what it takes. To sit there and degrade the gunners for a no bird or multiples, but have never been to, worked or seen a National is stupid. I am a National Gunner, and can attest to the skills of all the people in the Gunners Guild, regardless of age. Many things contribute to a no bird, throwers skill, (not the gunner) do they even know how to throw a live pheasant flyer, are Judges being very picky about where that bird lands, etc. etc. If you want to sit at a keyboard and degrade people putting out their time and finances (2 and now 3 times with the NDC) for a National event for the dogs, and know nothing, I say shut the Hell up and go lay by your dish. PS I am sure Kenny was not happy about all the no birds, but Deke did a great job, and he understands what it takes. A National is nothing even close to a weekend trial shooting, which I have done plenty of locally. :2c: I am now off the podium.
 
#41 · (Edited)
I was planning to stay out of this but reading this makes me think if something isn’t said nothing will change. You are focusing on one dog and not the others? Why is that, yes he had more but all dogs with no birds or non no birds are also affected. You focus only on the tenth what about the other 5 marking series? The issue with no birds has been getting worse each year to the point the gunners blame the throwers the throwers blame the gunners (as seen in the post above) everyone at the events listening has heard it. That in itself tells you there is a problem. The biggest issue I see is the whole let it ride out, lets see how far you can throw it, lets see how far out we can get it before we shoot, and all the other statements that have been made and heard. These events are not about how big a flyer those in the field can get (who are there for 20-25 dogs then changed out), but about the dogs who toe the line.

As Ted and David say the flyer is the most unfair bird and that is simply because it is allowed to be. I have had many discussions and listened in on many more conversations with those who have been at this a lot longer than me. It seems that pretty much all of them would like to see parameters set on the flyer. In this the judges go out mark the spot they want the bird to land just like a dead bird then mark ten yards each direction from there. This gives the flyer a 20 yard area to land, as someone that has thrown and shot a lot of his own flyers I can tell you this can be done. By doing this yes dogs have to mark, they have to decipher through the older falls, but what they do not have to do is use a handle, go out of an event, gut hunt, etc on a bird that is 30 yards farther and deeper than any other. That plain and simple is not fair to the DOG, for them to go out and work the area of all fresh shot birds, feathers, blood, etc that other dogs have had and there bird be nowhere close. IF that is the only way you can get dogs to hunt then the bird placement of the whole test should be revisited. A dog is supposed to honor their nose and work an area, a 20 yard area is plenty to see this.

Until we stop pointing fingers, making excuses for our failures as humans which we all have, then we will never get to making this fair for the dogs. A lot of you posting on this thread have spoke in the past about sportsmanship and honor for fellow contestants, why is it you don’t have those same thoughts for doing what’s best for the dogs? By settling for birds being unfair for some and not others you are settling for mediocracy, do you also settle for mediocracy when training your dogs? I can tell you the people that are at the nationals most likely did not, so why is it fair you ask so much of your dogs but not also the mechanics of the test? Why is it if a dead bird is short by four yards or it misses an island its a no bird but if a flyer is 20-30 yards farther they roll with it? Every bird should have a parameter set on it of what is fair to the dog, if the guys in the field cant fulfill that then they need to change or the bird needs to change period. I personally would like to see paid bird throwers at the event just like every weekend trial I attend this was also another great topic recently. I know there are groups that are willing to give grants to help this, I also feel if they raised the entry fee $50 per dog at the national to help cover the cost you wouldn’t hear much complaining and you would have guys that do this all year in the field. you would cut way down on thrower changes lowering the odds of bad throws. No one is trying to mess up or miss a throw, but you raise your odds putting someone in the field that does it 5-6 days week all year vs the guy that does it 4-5 times all year.

The gunners and workers do give up a lot to go to the events and everyone appreciates it, but so do the handlers and owners. Everyone is out of pocket, it cost a lot to go to them. The way I see it you can continue to point fingers and blame everyone else and nothing changes or just like when you work through a problem training a dog we all can work to find solutions and ideas to make it better. These dogs work their butts off for us to try and do it right, to get better, to do what we ask of them and we owe it to them to make things as fair as possible and do right by them. Nationals are about show casing great dog work and nothing else so lets find the best way to let them do that. These conversations are only good if you look to improve instead of place blame. I am sure some will agree and others will disagree and thats ok with me but lets try to blend it all up and give the dogs what they deserve.
 
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